Program Revitalization Website

Discussions about the 2012 Program Review
Rick Gruchy
Posts: 220
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:45 am
anti_spambot: 7

Program Revitalization Website

Post by Rick Gruchy » Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:13 pm


User avatar
RakelaK
Posts: 111
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:07 pm
anti_spambot: 7

Re: Program Revitalization Website

Post by RakelaK » Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:02 pm

Will be watching very closely to see how it continues to evolve... thanks for posting the link.

User avatar
Scouter Richie
Posts: 174
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:40 am
anti_spambot: 7
Location: Aberdeen, Saskatchewan

Re: Program Revitalization Website

Post by Scouter Richie » Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:08 pm

I really like the level of transparency that the program review has had and this website just helps it along. A few months ago the general concept of SPICES and a tighter flow between sections was announced. Now we get to see what spices stands for and a sampling of what one of the progressive badges looks like. This makes it simple for people like me, who are interested but don't have time for the review, to see what is going on and provide some feed back. It also lets old leaders have a chance to slowly see and start to like where we are headed.

If you put a frog in a pot of water and slowly bring it to a boil the frog will live. If you put a frog in a pot of water that is already boiling the frog will die. The same is true of people with change. As much as I want it to be done now I am glad the water is not going to reach a rolling boil until Fall 2015.

-----

As for the site itself it reminds me of a computer game for 3-10 year olds. I think it is really cool that something new is being tried instead of the usual text with links on a page. When the new program is launched to the youth I would definitely like to see it in a format like this. For an update to leaders some will have to develop new skills before they can navigate it. It would be good to add a site map for their benefit.

My favorite part of the site is the ability to post to Facebook when you earn a badge. The option to automatically post once a leader has awarded the badge should definitely be built into Scout Tracker.
YIS
Richie
Deputy Council Youth Commissioner - Youth Training & Special Events
Saskatchewan Council

Angus Bickerton
Posts: 562
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:55 pm
anti_spambot: 7
Location: Brockville, Ontario

Re: Program Revitalization Website

Post by Angus Bickerton » Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:20 am

Scouter Richie wrote:If you put a frog in a pot of water and slowly bring it to a boil the frog will live. If you put a frog in a pot of water that is already boiling the frog will die.
Ummm, the frog dies the first way, not the second. If you put a frog in a pot of cool water, and slowly heat it, bringing to a boil, the frog will be boiled alive and do nothing to save itself from the heat of the water. If you drop a frog into a pot of boiling water, it immediately tries to leap out, recognizing the boiling water as a threat to its continued existence (though why anyone would want to boil a whole frog alive is beyond me. Cleaned and dressed, them frog legs roasted over an open fire is good eatin'!).

The cold-blooded nature of the frog is used against it to cook it without the frog objecting. This is often used as a metaphor when taking advantage of a weakness in order to exploit a situation. By doing things slowly and patiently, the victim does not notice. Go too fast, and they will "wake up" and take action to save themselves.

I don't think that's the metaphor you were looking for (though some might argue that's what the program review is all about :lol:).
Angus Bickerton
Troop Scouter
Brockville Troop
1st Brockville Group Committee
1st Gilwell 2011 (Colony) 2013 (Pack)

There is no armour made that can withstand the truth - Karsa Orlong

sdfry
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:57 pm
anti_spambot: 7

Re: Program Revitalization Website

Post by sdfry » Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:50 am

It is nice to see some stuff that's easy to digest. The previous public docs were certainly the "1000ft" view.
Angus Bickerton wrote:
Scouter Richie wrote:If you put a frog in a pot of water and slowly bring it to a boil the frog will live. If you put a frog in a pot of water that is already boiling the frog will die.
Well don't worry about quick boiling or slow boiling, they're not expected to put this out until Fall 2015.

The frog will die of old age before then.

And could someone let me know the last time Scouts Canada executed a plan on time?

Stan

Sam Wallis
Posts: 719
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:46 pm
anti_spambot: 7

Re: Program Revitalization Website

Post by Sam Wallis » Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:04 pm

ouch.
Truth is a perception, and a individual perception is their truth

Angus Bickerton
Posts: 562
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:55 pm
anti_spambot: 7
Location: Brockville, Ontario

Re: Program Revitalization Website

Post by Angus Bickerton » Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:28 pm

sdfry wrote:It is nice to see some stuff that's easy to digest. The previous public docs were certainly the "1000ft" view.

Well don't worry about quick boiling or slow boiling, they're not expected to put this out until Fall 2015.

The frog will die of old age before then.

And could someone let me know the last time Scouts Canada executed a plan on time?

Stan
Fall of 2015 is, imho, an entirely appropriate date. I'm on the Cub Scout team (plus a Pack and Troop leader, and on my Group Committee), and we've been working on this for a year. We are getting close, but a final product is a ways off. It will still need a good shakedown, review and revision before it is launched. And five other teams (Colony, Troop, Company, Crew, and Adventure Skills) are working on their parts, some further ahead, some more behind. This is a COLOSSAL task, and we can't afford to get it wrong (myscouts.ca, anyone?). Add into this the consultation that each team member is doing with their local scouters and others they meet along the way, and you get to see the breadth and scope of what is involved.

Then, once the program is written, edited, tested, reviewed, revised, and re-tested, the program content of WB I and II will have to be re-written, and ALL the leaders across Canada will have to be trained in the new program. Try that for a logistical hurdle! The original schedule was to put the programs out for testing in 2013-2014, and for launch 2014-2015. Not a chance we could have done that, and I for one am glad that we are 2.5 years away from the launch.

The review is not just about "updating" the programs, it is about cutting out all of the extras and getting back down to the basics of scouting at the different age levels. Making scouting focused and lean, instead of trying to be all things to all people. Getting outdoors lots, learning by doing, using the small group (patrol) system, and giving the youth the leadership opportunities. It is rebuilding it from the bottom up, relying heavily on the Founder's ideals and methods, and using the best of what we have done over the last 106 years.

Given this, 32 months from now is not far away at all. In fact, time is slipping through our fingers all too quickly. So, before we start saying that we are taking too long to get this done, remember that there has not been a comprehensive program review in Scouts Canada EVER. This is the first in 106 years, so it is about 80 years overdue. The task is big, but our determination is bigger. Be patient, provide your input and constructive criticism, and we'll produce programs that are the best that Scouting in this country has seen since 1907.
Angus Bickerton
Troop Scouter
Brockville Troop
1st Brockville Group Committee
1st Gilwell 2011 (Colony) 2013 (Pack)

There is no armour made that can withstand the truth - Karsa Orlong

sdfry
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:57 pm
anti_spambot: 7

Re: Program Revitalization Website

Post by sdfry » Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:58 pm

Angus,

Yup. Dead frog was uncalled for.

I can see how (and why) you and the other members team were upset/offended/angry about my post.

For that, I apologize.

But I will explain how I feel about the whole thing.

I run the Scouts Program as close as I can based on today's criteria, if it changes in the future, I will embrace the changes and run it accordingly then.

I enjoy both the Program and the people I work with in delivering it. (I personally have a Beaver Scout and a Cub Scout in the program.)

I have said that I highly respect the team of Scouters involved in the process (in a different post). It's a lot of hard work and effort by a few to update a program that is 100 years old with extra stuff tacked on through the years. And I applaud the work.

And I understand and respect that the whole plan will need a lot of "vetting" before it's fully implemented.

And I understand and respect that this will take a lot of time.

And I am happy I can see a more concrete path that this plan is taking.

But my past experience of Scouts Canada execution of plans has left me with a bit of a sour taste in my mouth. (myscouts/uniforms, and I like both, but execution was horrible).

And I think this is where my frustration is getting the best of me.

But again, I do apologize, my words were meant in jest and they stung.

That's not right.

And it certainly wasn't constructive.

Stan

Angus Bickerton
Posts: 562
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:55 pm
anti_spambot: 7
Location: Brockville, Ontario

Re: Program Revitalization Website

Post by Angus Bickerton » Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:32 pm

Thanks, Stan. I appreciate your words, and I appreciate you. We're cool. 8-)

I too have been frustrated by timelines. I hope we're right on this one. One big difference is that we are a bunch of scouters who do section leadership every week, and we love what we do and the people we do it with, just like you do. We don't work for Joe Fresh or for a software company, we are Cub Scout Leaders! And we want to get this right before it gets fully launched.

Thanks for the vote of support.
Angus Bickerton
Troop Scouter
Brockville Troop
1st Brockville Group Committee
1st Gilwell 2011 (Colony) 2013 (Pack)

There is no armour made that can withstand the truth - Karsa Orlong

Sam Wallis
Posts: 719
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:46 pm
anti_spambot: 7

Re: Program Revitalization Website

Post by Sam Wallis » Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:53 pm

Angus Bickerton wrote:
sdfry wrote:It is nice to see some stuff that's easy to digest. The previous public docs were certainly the "1000ft" view.

Well don't worry about quick boiling or slow boiling, they're not expected to put this out until Fall 2015.

The frog will die of old age before then.

And could someone let me know the last time Scouts Canada executed a plan on time?

Stan
Fall of 2015 is, imho, an entirely appropriate date. I'm on the Cub Scout team (plus a Pack and Troop leader, and on my Group Committee), and we've been working on this for a year. We are getting close, but a final product is a ways off. It will still need a good shakedown, review and revision before it is launched. And five other teams (Colony, Troop, Company, Crew, and Adventure Skills) are working on their parts, some further ahead, some more behind. This is a COLOSSAL task, and we can't afford to get it wrong (myscouts.ca, anyone?). Add into this the consultation that each team member is doing with their local scouters and others they meet along the way, and you get to see the breadth and scope of what is involved.

Then, once the program is written, edited, tested, reviewed, revised, and re-tested, the program content of WB I and II will have to be re-written, and ALL the leaders across Canada will have to be trained in the new program. Try that for a logistical hurdle! The original schedule was to put the programs out for testing in 2013-2014, and for launch 2014-2015. Not a chance we could have done that, and I for one am glad that we are 2.5 years away from the launch.

The review is not just about "updating" the programs, it is about cutting out all of the extras and getting back down to the basics of scouting at the different age levels. Making scouting focused and lean, instead of trying to be all things to all people. Getting outdoors lots, learning by doing, using the small group (patrol) system, and giving the youth the leadership opportunities. It is rebuilding it from the bottom up, relying heavily on the Founder's ideals and methods, and using the best of what we have done over the last 106 years.

Given this, 32 months from now is not far away at all. In fact, time is slipping through our fingers all too quickly. So, before we start saying that we are taking too long to get this done, remember that there has not been a comprehensive program review in Scouts Canada EVER. This is the first in 106 years, so it is about 80 years overdue. The task is big, but our determination is bigger. Be patient, provide your input and constructive criticism, and we'll produce programs that are the best that Scouting in this country has seen since 1907.

I like all the ideas I have seen, and there is definatly a lot of stuff that needs (IMO) to be trimed. I wonder what the training (or retraining) process will look like? certainly thats a huge task, of the 25K or so adults, most need some form of update, and thats different for everyone. its hard enough for some of us to find time to attend training, this is going to be a critical, and difficult part of the task.
Truth is a perception, and a individual perception is their truth

User avatar
Jody
Posts: 242
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2010 6:31 pm
anti_spambot: 7
Location: West Vancouver, B.C.
Contact:

Re: Program Revitalization Website

Post by Jody » Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:36 pm

<deleted>
Last edited by Jody on Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.
B. Jody Lotzkar
Founder
1st Mountaineer Scouts, West Vancouver, B.C.

Email.......... scouterjody [at] gmail [dot] com
Facebook..... http://www.facebook.com/MountaineerScouts
Instagram... http://www.instagram.com/1stMountaineers
Web............ http://www.MountaineerScouts.com
MCAMP........ http://www.MountaineeringCamp.com

Oh, and if anyone asks: Yes....this IS supposed to scare your mother!

sburns
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:56 pm
anti_spambot: 7

Re: Program Revitalization Website

Post by sburns » Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:55 am

until I encountered the work behind publishing information through Scouts Canada, I was not aware of the timeline required to have translations and final production put in place.

This affects all publications that we have. 32 months seems like a good amount of time. The information will require about 6 months to be completed once it's finished by the respective teams.

The majority of Scout Canada's volunteers are not aware of this piece of information.

scouterguider
Posts: 132
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:52 pm
anti_spambot: 7

Re: Program Revitalization Website

Post by scouterguider » Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:31 am

Yes, as not only all the training material would need to be redone - so would ALL the manuals... plus new badges produced, etc.

Sam Wallis
Posts: 719
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:46 pm
anti_spambot: 7

Re: Program Revitalization Website

Post by Sam Wallis » Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:51 am

cub handbook, scout handbook, etc. the training is the biggest part though, thats going to be tough.
Truth is a perception, and a individual perception is their truth

Rick Gruchy
Posts: 220
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:45 am
anti_spambot: 7

Re: Program Revitalization Website

Post by Rick Gruchy » Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:58 am

You are correct Sam. As Angus has already mentioned, this is a huge undertaking that is going to impact every part of the Organization. Training is huge, fortunately there is an excellent team in place that is working on this.

Doug Reid
Posts: 88
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:16 am
anti_spambot: 7

Re: Program Revitalization Website

Post by Doug Reid » Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:47 am

The website FAQ's provide a good background on many of the things we have been working through, including the rational for a progressive badge system, along with plans for personal interest badges similar to what we currently have.

I'm glad some other have posted their thoughts on timing and the process. I seriously had no idea when we started this where it would lead and the time it would take. Development, design, translation, publication....so many pieces and the big one is volunteer training. Realistically it's impossible to think that we can simply flip a switch in September 2015 and have everyone using the new program, so we are working on a detailed transition plan. This starts with the plan for pilots at the end of this year.

The most important thing to keep in mind is that we won't launch anything if it isn't right and if we are not ready. We have to get this right, as there is just too much riding on this to simply push it out the door and hope it works.

Doug
Doug Reid
Deputy National Commissioner - Program Services

Sam Wallis
Posts: 719
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:46 pm
anti_spambot: 7

Re: Program Revitalization Website

Post by Sam Wallis » Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:57 am

Doug, just a sugestion, but you might want to have a plan to deal with the potential of groups just ignoring the new program. I know of a few girl guide groups that use differing older programs for whatever reason. if that would bother SC, then we should have a plan. if not, it sounds like a great program to me.
Truth is a perception, and a individual perception is their truth

Doug Reid
Posts: 88
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:16 am
anti_spambot: 7

Re: Program Revitalization Website

Post by Doug Reid » Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:22 pm

Thanks Sam. I really see this as a transition....it'll take time to get Groups running the new program and in the end I think it will be the youth themselves that will want to try it.
Doug
Doug Reid
Deputy National Commissioner - Program Services

awallwork
Posts: 66
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2009 7:37 pm
anti_spambot: 7

Re: Program Revitalization Website

Post by awallwork » Thu Mar 28, 2013 12:59 am

Just throwing it out there with respect to printing program books etc.

With more and more troops going electronic and using ScoutsTracker as their primary badge/program management system, and with the VAST majority of our members online, are we getting value for money in continuing to print versions of section handbooks? We've already gotten all of our badge/program elements online and a lot of Scouters use it as their primary source. Download a PDF of the program element or track it in ScoutsTracker, both ways are pretty fast and permit updating of material.

I'm thinking of the resources needed to get print editions to store shelves, typesetting/printing don't come cheap. Plus, we've seen several badges have major revamps (computer badge for example was out of date for years.) By going electronic as the primary source, we can minimize the switching costs for when program changes as the world changes and allows us to be more agile.
pccrovers.com | andrew.wallwork AT pccrovers (the one character) com | twitter @scoutscanada @awallwork

Doug Reid
Posts: 88
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:16 am
anti_spambot: 7

Re: Program Revitalization Website

Post by Doug Reid » Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:52 am

Thanks Andrew, good comments on the printing of books. The team hasn't made any recommendations yet as it relates to printed books, I believe that there will still need to be a basic handbook.

For the Scouters we are really trying to work towards one manual, The Canadian Path, as we are presenting the new program as a journey. This would be supplemented with Section specific information.

However, we see most program resources being online. We will be developing some really great tools for youth and Scouters to use in the Plan, Do, Review process of adventure program planning. These activity cards will have a basic outline and when needed, links to online resources such as youtube, or the Scout Wiki etc.... that youth can access.

Doug
Doug Reid
Deputy National Commissioner - Program Services

Post Reply