Approved v not approved uniform parts

Raves, rants, and comments about the 2011 uniform change
firedog_53
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Re: Approved v not approved uniform parts

Post by firedog_53 » Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:52 am

Norma,
first, its not my "definition".. I just copied it. Thought I had added quotes but guess not.. my bad!

Second, Cadets, no idea. Can't confirm or deny.. though the fact that someone treats them different than Scouts makes me think someone thinks they are different. I do know that even BP said that Scouts were not Cadets, that was long before most of us were born. Don't see why we should be considered the same now?

Don't want to hijack this thread and make it about something else.

FD

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Re: Approved v not approved uniform parts

Post by Angus Bickerton » Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:22 pm

Definitely a topic for a different thread, and an issue worth some discussion, especially with the recent uniform change and issues surrounding military honours being worn on the Scouts Canada uniform.

Perhaps the admin could remove the last several posts regarding the inclusion/exclusion of Scouts from military memorial ceremonies and put them under a new heading, such as "Scouts Canada's relationship with the CAF".
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Re: Approved v not approved uniform parts

Post by Jody » Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:03 pm

FD, the definition of "civilian" you used is too narrow.

That definition defines "civilian" as being the opposite of "soldier" or "combatant".

With respect, that definition would seriously offend all of the other non-civilians in our society that take pride in having taken the same (or virtually the same) oath to serve their country and fellow citizens that our military take and who are not combatants or soldiers: Police Officers, Fire Fighters, SAR Techs, etc. I can assure you that these people do not consider themselves "civilians" and when they participate in any ceremony with the military are afforded equal respect and treatment.

Call us what you will but don't call us civilians. A civilian is one whom is served by those of us that have taken an oath to serve and protect.

Through the fog of time it is easy to forget...it is the current generation's duty to remember and preserve the honourable institution that we are.

I appreciate that there is something about this entire topic that makes some parents uneasy. This has been one of the most enduring issues since Scouting began. It can be argued that this is why BP said things about us not being military (which we are most certainly not) to assuage the parents of his day. When the King asked BP to resign his commission to put his full energies into Scouting you can be sure it was not for the purpose of creating a children's camping club.

This would be a good time to read "The Left Handshake":

http://www.thedump.scoutscan.com/lefthandshake.pdf

Sure, you can say I'm taking all of this too serious but I do it in reaction to the manifestation of the opposite sentiment that I see in Scouting today. If we do not behave professionally and with some degree of pride and self-respect in public then we cannot ask others to treat us any differently. I take the wearing of an un-ironed shirt, untucked, over un-pressed slacks to a formal visit to Parliament as a symptom of this whole problem. I suppose I cannot fault the organizers of the ceremony on the weekend...since we do respect ourselves, I cannot fault anyone else for not respecting us back in return.
Last edited by Jody on Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Approved v not approved uniform parts

Post by Sam Wallis » Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:50 pm

before we get so far as to discuss our self respect or lack there of, what is our intention of todays program?

we should aim to understand the past, learn from it, never bury or change it to suit modern times. however lets learn from the past and figure out what we want to be today. we talk of being a youth organization, we use the UN definition of youth being 14-24, yet the vast majority of our members dont fit into that age. once we figure out what we want to be then maybe we could come up with a plan to get there.
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Re: Approved v not approved uniform parts

Post by Jody » Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:54 pm

Sam: Thank you...that is a reasonable approach.
B. Jody Lotzkar
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Re: Approved v not approved uniform parts

Post by Sam Wallis » Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:10 pm

actualy, it was your scout troops name that brought me to it. if people ask what we do in Cubs, I have a long winded answer that probably drives them away. if I was in your group, I could say we climb mountains, and we do things to learn how to do that. thats a simple mission statement, and while all of SC cant climb mountains (precious few of them in PEI or SK) we need a unifying theme. we do X (I vote for something like we are an ourdoor oriented program that takes young people outdoors and on outdoor adventures, while preparing them to undertake their own adventures independantly. even thats kind of long, but who said I would write it.
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Re: Approved v not approved uniform parts

Post by firedog_53 » Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:32 pm

Canadian Forces members
Allegiance and loyalty to the monarch, and the manner in which they are expressed, are specifically outlined in the Canadian Forces regulations and subordinate orders. Within the Queen's Regulations and Orders, it is stipulated that all Canadian citizens or British subjects who enroll in the forces must take the Oath of Allegiance before either a commissioned officer or a justice of the peace. Others must recite a longer oath: "I, [name], do swear (or solemnly affirm) that I will well and truly serve Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her heirs and successors according to law, in the Canadian Forces until lawfully released, that I will resist Her Majesty's enemies and cause Her Majesty's peace to be kept and maintained and that I will, in all matters pertaining to my service, faithfully discharge my duty. So help me God"; the words So help me God are omitted if a solemn affirmation is taken

Those required to take the oathThe following persons must take the Oath of Allegiance before occupying a governmental, military, police, or judicial post. Generally, these individuals are appointed by the monarch or relevant viceroy, meaning they serve at Her Majesty's pleasure, and are charged with creating or administering the law.

[edit] FederalGovernors general of Canada[26]
Members of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada[28]
Senators[4]
Members of parliament[4]
Justices of the Supreme Court of Canada
Justices of the Federal Court
Justices of the Federal Court of Appeal
Recruits of the Canadian Forces[41]
New citizens of Canada
Members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police
[edit] ProvincialLieutenant governors[42]
Members of a legislature (MLAs, MPPs, MNAs, and MHAs)[4]
Justices of the superior courts, appellate courts, and provincial courts
Staff of the Ontario civil service[43]
All other Crown appointees in Ontario[44]
Civil servants in Manitoba
Members of the Canadian Bar Association
Lawyers in Alberta[45] and PEI[46]
[edit] OptionalRecruits of the Ontario Provincial Police (optional)
Lawyers in Ontario[47] and Nova Scotia[48]

OH and I forgot the Members of Scouts Canada and I suppose the Girl Guides? Do we consider the Clergy as civilians or ???
Not sure if there are others or not? Notice that it doesn't list Fire Fighters or even most paramedics or at least what I can find.
There sure are a lot of us non civilian types, huh?
FD

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Re: Approved v not approved uniform parts

Post by norma » Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:32 pm

firedog_53 wrote:New citizens of Canada
so if you are 'born' Canadian you are 'civilian'. If you 'become' Canadian you are not ;)

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Re: Approved v not approved uniform parts

Post by firedog_53 » Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:19 pm

Norma,
Beats me! I always thought a civilian was someone not in the armed forces but silly me!

I just listed those who take oaths for their position/office or job.. someone else would have to tell me if they are civilians or not.

I do know, regardless, that our program is non military in origin, started to make better citizens out of our members. Something that we all should be aware of and not forget. We have enough people in this world who are concerned about making warriors out of young people, not sure it should be us?

So, does that mean we should not be at parades, flag raising , funnerals or memorials? Not at all! Remember the sacrafices that others have made on our behalf is an important part of being a good citizen. We should all know the cost of freedom, know that it comes with a heavy cost and keeping peace is just as dear.

Think in short, we are a youth movement or organization that educates young people. Not a loosely organized para military organization. Not now, not ever. That does not mean that some of our members have not paid for our freedom or gone on to perform acts of valour or heroism or duty.

I can get off the soap box now.

FD

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Re: Approved v not approved uniform parts

Post by Sam Wallis » Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:50 pm

honestly I dont think WE know what WE are.
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Re: Approved v not approved uniform parts

Post by Jody » Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:52 pm

So, does that mean we should not be at parades, flag raising , funnerals or memorials? Not at all!
What is the difference between those marching in the memorial parades and those in the gallery or street sides?

Should Scouts be in the parade (and why) or should we be on the sidelines waving with the rest of the crowd as the parade marches by?
honestly I dont think WE know what WE are.
I still remember...

Scouting in the 60s and 70s was a golden time in my life.

I must be something of an anomaly...I've been away from Scouting for the past 30 years and have been completely untouched by the turmoil of the intervening years.

I am basically picking up where I left off 30 years ago and carrying forward with a few personal touches here and there...

Now that the summer is over, I'm starting to hear from parents about how their kids talked continuously all summer with other kids and family members about their kickbutt adventures from last year (our first year in existence). Cool to see such relatively short boys walking so tall!
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Re: Approved v not approved uniform parts

Post by ayates » Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:58 pm

Jody wrote:Cool to see such relatively short boys walking so tall!
They grew over the summer? :)

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Re: Approved v not approved uniform parts

Post by Sam Wallis » Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:44 pm

why do we march in parades? right now, I bet a lot of these are used as a marketing tool rather than to show respect, rememberance etc?
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Re: Approved v not approved uniform parts

Post by Angus Bickerton » Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:07 pm

Sam Wallis wrote:why do we march in parades? right now, I bet a lot of these are used as a marketing tool rather than to show respect, rememberance etc?
Unlikely. I have never seen Scouting that organized! :lol: I also don't know of any group commissioners who would be so mercenary.

Seriously, Scouts hardly market at all. We would only march in parades as commemoration of sacrifice given by soldiers and former scouts, from what I have seen. I am with FD on this, really. We are not a paramilitary organization. Our only similarity to a paramilitary organization is that we wear a uniform. We do no military training whatsoever (which flows from B.P. himself).

This said, we have strong ties to the military, and that's okay, but it doesn't make us military.

Like Jody, I was away from Scouting for 26 years, and am sad to see what happened to it. Why did it happen? It happened not because of uniform changes or changes in attitudes, but because programming at the section level was allowed to deteriorate to the point where the kids weren't DOING stuff. Jody's success is a perfect example. I'd put good money down that his Troop grows this fall. Why? They do awesome cool stuff! My own troop has done a complete flip from car camping to patrol camping, with a focus on canoe tripping. We intend to build them up to white water canoeists by 2014, and start a Venturer Company at the same time (we don't have mountains like Jody does, but we have lots of rivers and lakes in Eastern Ontario!).

Guys, our kids will be proud to wear their uniform if they are proud about what they are DOING. If anybody is car camping at the troop level, please stop. Probably no one on this board, but likely most of the troops across the country. We are working a small group of 11 and 12 year olds up to a proper patrol system. Our next step is patrol meetings at home and having the patrols do the grocery shopping for their camps. They will make their own canoe paddles this winter. They will earn their Voyageur awards (I mean really earn them!). They will experience a week-long canoe adventure in July (we've decided to opt out of CJ: too much $$$ for too little gain), and a 4-day Algonquin Park hike in August, but they will DO it themselves, with leaders supervising, not spoon feeding them. And when other kids know what they are doing, they might want to do it too.

At that point, whether in tan or green, or grey, or red, or blue, it won't matter. They'll just want to wear it.
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Re: Approved v not approved uniform parts

Post by Jody » Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:18 pm

Guys, our kids will be proud to wear their uniform if they are proud about what they are DOING. If anybody is car camping at the troop level, please stop.
Couldn't agree more with both statements!


Oh, and I wouldn't want anyone to think that I'm confused about us being military or not....that we are definitely not!
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Re: Approved v not approved uniform parts

Post by Angus Bickerton » Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:12 am

Jody, you can tell that your Troop is proud of what they wear. When your new scouts come in wearing the green shirts with your bergundy berets, they'll wear them proudly too (with tan pants and leather belts). This is because your troop does really awesome stuff. Mountaineering: really hard to get cooler than that (in more ways than one!).
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Re: Approved v not approved uniform parts

Post by Sam Wallis » Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:47 am

I suppose it depends on the parade, here we have santa clause and canada day, I have definatly heard both can be used as a marketing tool.
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Re: Approved v not approved uniform parts

Post by Angus Bickerton » Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:22 am

Parades are a "visibility" opportunity, which are few and far between for Scouting, because we do our stuff in school gyms, church basements, and in the woods. We participate in our community's Santa Claus parade because (1) it is fun for the kids, especially Beavers and Cubs, to be involved and (2) because it creates a lot of visibility.

I would never treat a Remembrance Day Parade as a "visibility" opportunity, though that is an obvious benefit. We will be parading with our veterans, militia, and cadets on November 11. We will have our Scouts dress in layers so that they can wear their shirts on top and be in full uniform, unless it's raining/sleeting/snowing like crazy.
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Re: Approved v not approved uniform parts

Post by Jody » Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:46 pm

We will be parading with our veterans, militia, and cadets on November 11.
Angus: I guess the issue I'm trying to provoke discussion on is this:

"Why do we march in memorial parades instead of showing our respect to those who are in the parade from the sidelines like everyone else in the community?"

Who are we?

What makes us different than all those other citizens lining the sidewalks on Remembrance Day?

Is there a difference?

I suggest that these essential questions ("who am I", "where do I come from", "why am I here?", "what is my purpose") need to be addressed at this crossroad in the history of Scouting in Canada. The program will flow from there...to a certain extent, them's just details.
B. Jody Lotzkar
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Email.......... scouterjody [at] gmail [dot] com
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Re: Approved v not approved uniform parts

Post by Sam Wallis » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:20 pm

Perhaps we show respect in the parade rather than on the sidelines because we are a group? dont know, I havent seen a rememberance day parade, ceremonies yes, although the ceremony here was moved from the cenotaph to an indoor soccer arena because it was more comfortable. I dunno, I dont think any of our vets who fought in WWI, WWII Korea etc were comfortable.

I dont remember what we were because I am starting my 8th year in scouting, was never in as a kid so there is more that I dont know than I know. I would sugest that we did this uniform thing wrong. First we need to know who we are, what we were and what we want to be, then define a program, then define the uniform.

from a car background, what we did is decide on what engine our car should have, without any consideration for things like what we will do with the car. we may have gotten a tiny 4 cylinder when we are going to end up putting it into a 1 ton crew cab long box dually truck. that we will tow a trailer with.
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