Badge Placement

Raves, rants, and comments about the 2011 uniform change
scouterguider
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Badge Placement

Post by scouterguider » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:25 am

I am continuing this from the Uniform Hat....

There will always be problems with Badge placement, with parents not sure where badges go.

The one problem with the badge placement with the new uniforms for a lot of parents is that the ("new") cub books (and other section books?) still have the old uniform in it. Yes I went and got it off the internet, but not every parent will do that.

The other problem we have is with the size of the Group/Area badges at this point. You go to our cub meetings, and the kids with the old uniforms have these badges, and the badges go on down almost to their wrist... Group, Area, (some have a 2nd area badge - our area has 2) then sixer badge. Even taking out the 2nd redundant area badge it takes them past the elbow with my short little cub. And our Group badge does meet the dimensions specified, and I think the area badge does too. It leaves very little room for the badges. My son has earned 9 since September (will be 10 probably after tonight's meeting)

I made an "executive descision" and said 'to heck with the area badge'... that gives him room for 6 more badges.

I also have plans for when he runs out of sleeve space because, I'm sorry, no cub wants to put earned badges in a little badge book that no one sees, or a banner on his wall (he has the badge sticker poster for that.)

And btw - I am one of those people who are generally very careful to put badges in the right spot... almost the dreaded "uniform police".... but it just wasn't thought out well enough.

btw - guides use (or at least used to use) one little name-label type strip to identify the group on their uniforms. Takes up about 1cm of space. No area/district/council/province type badges... well I think there are province badges for guides going to out-of province events... and Canadian flags put on if going out of country. So - just saying that we shouldn't need 9" or so of "real estate" to identify where a scout does his scouting.

Sam Wallis
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Re: Badge Placement

Post by Sam Wallis » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:47 am

guides still use that 1 cm strip. our group badges look impresive, at least some do, but your right, thats badge real estate.
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Angus Bickerton
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Re: Badge Placement

Post by Angus Bickerton » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:14 am

We provided our parents with a one-page sheet for both the old uniform and the new. The new uniform sheets are found at the Scout wiki:

http://wiki.scouts.ca/en/Uniform_Insignia_Placement

I do not know if this has been made official with an amendment to B.P. & P., but I thought that was an agenda item at the National Annual meeting.

In order to deal with the badge real estate problem, the individual Councils need to get moving on changing their own crests to meet the shape and identification standards, and then instruct their Area Commissioners to do the same, and then the ACs can instruct the Group Commissioners. Group and Area go on the right shoulder, and Council goes on the right.

The Section Leaders are also getting this wrong. I see a lot of gray cub shirts with the Ontario crest on the left shoulder where the Council crest should be.

It is also evident that sewing is a lost art. I see some pretty shabby sashes and shirts in my cub section. Even the Beaver vests, which are really easy to sew badges onto, can look pretty shabby.
Angus Bickerton
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ayates
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Re: Badge Placement

Post by ayates » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:48 am

Angus Bickerton wrote:the individual Councils need to get moving on changing their own crests to meet the shape and identification standards
Keep in mind that even if/when crests are re-designed, there are still the existing supplies to use up. I know for our group crest, which I think actually meets (or close to it) the criteria, we have at least an existing five year supply at our current enrollment level.

Funnily, when my daughter was in cadets, there was a lot more emphasis on the uniform looking perfect. All the badges appeared to be sewn perfectly. And while my wife sewed the badges on the kid's Scouting uniforms over the years, my daughter insisted on doing the sewing for her cadet uniform. Evidently a different set of expectations being made.

scouterguider
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Re: Badge Placement

Post by scouterguider » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:13 am

Yes, but cadets is also more firmly associated with the military - and a military standard is in place for the uniform. It is quite routine during inspection for the inspector to attempt to rip off any new badges or rank insignia - and the cadet will be thoroughly "dressed down" (ie yelled at) in front of their peers if the inspector succeeds. An inspector might take a tape measure and check badge placement. Similar results for creases not in the right spot or sharp enough, boots not shined well enough, tie not tied right, etc. As the cadet is the one that takes the consequences, they usually very quickly take responsibility for doing it themselves, and doing it correctly. I don't think a cadet would ever say their "mom did it wrong" or otherwise admit that their mom did anything at all - and one that ever did make the mistake of saying that, certainly wouldn't ever say it again.

Some of the badges on my cubs uniform are not the epitome of fantastic sewing - because he sewed them on himself. They aren't bad (yes, I've seen some bad sewing too...) but they aren't perfect. If he was with the uniform with the badge sash - he would sew on all badges. As I find sewing on the sleeves difficult - I am sewing on those badges at this point. Once he is a scout I will expect him to sew those on to. Any going on the front of the shirt, he sews himself.

norma
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Re: Badge Placement

Post by norma » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:28 am

Funnily, when my daughter was in cadets, there was a lot more emphasis on the uniform looking perfect. All the badges appeared to be sewn perfectly. And while my wife sewed the badges on the kid's Scouting uniforms over the years, my daughter insisted on doing the sewing for her cadet uniform. Evidently a different set of expectations being made.
There is a major different set of expectations. If your badges aren't EXACTLY to specifications they will rip them off on parade. If you don't want badges hanging off your arms for the rest of the night, or the dreaded 'pen in the badge' you sewed them on exactly, checking and readjusting before parade.

I believe the American Scouts can be close to this exactness, they have charts that you can print out to measure the different badges that need to line up on your arms for the badges.

There is always going to be a problem with the length of the sleeve when you have a small Cub shirt v a extra large Cub shirt. That is where a sash is a bonus as it is the same length no matter how big/small the youth is.

I think you need to realize that there are two sleeves on the shirt. Get as many badges as possible on the first sleeve, then fill the other sleeve. If they are still earning badges then create a sash. My brothers group had sashes, before it was 'official'. But only those that were earning a crazy amount of badges were given the sash as a means to display their earnings during formal ceremonies.

The badge book/banner to me would be an 'after' thing; as a memorial of badges you earned, once you have moved up to Scouts.

The thing that some parents need to remember is that in the past all the badges were on the sleeves, and the Cubs were able to sew them on themselves, especially if they wanted their Sewing Badge ;)

Angus Bickerton
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Re: Badge Placement

Post by Angus Bickerton » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:29 am

scouterguider wrote:Yes, but cadets is also more firmly associated with the military - and a military standard is in place for the uniform. It is quite routine during inspection for the inspector to attempt to rip off any new badges or rank insignia - and the cadet will be thoroughly "dressed down" (ie yelled at) in front of their peers if the inspector succeeds. An inspector might take a tape measure and check badge placement. Similar results for creases not in the right spot or sharp enough, boots not shined well enough, tie not tied right, etc. As the cadet is the one that takes the consequences, they usually very quickly take responsibility for doing it themselves, and doing it correctly. I don't think a cadet would ever say their "mom did it wrong" or otherwise admit that their mom did anything at all - and one that ever did make the mistake of saying that, certainly wouldn't ever say it again.

Some of the badges on my cubs uniform are not the epitome of fantastic sewing - because he sewed them on himself. They aren't bad (yes, I've seen some bad sewing too...) but they aren't perfect. If he was with the uniform with the badge sash - he would sew on all badges. As I find sewing on the sleeves difficult - I am sewing on those badges at this point. Once he is a scout I will expect him to sew those on to. Any going on the front of the shirt, he sews himself.
My issue isn't so much quality of sewing, but the badge placement. Some sections can look a pretty motley crew at times. Others look fantastic, old uniform or new makes no difference, because the youth were expected to have their uniform in shape (not like the military rigidity of cadets, but there is incentive to look good). It is really a matter of raising the bar, which I have been trying to do with my own cub pack. I point out, gently, badge mistakes, and draw their attention to the guidelines. I'm going to paste it inside the front cover of the books of those with gray shirts.
Angus Bickerton
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Brockville Troop
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scouterguider
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Re: Badge Placement

Post by scouterguider » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:33 am

Well, my son's sleeve is about 18.5" long

His group crest is almost 4" tall (specifications say should be 3")

Area crest is 3" (circle)

Six badge (it is the old style one) is 1.5" long

So his current "identification" type badges for the one sleeve are about 8.5" - should be about 7.5" - lets say leave 0.5" in total between them.... that is 9" should be 8".

That is 1/2 his total earned badge real-estate taken by identification.

The old style badges are 1.5" tall and he has about 9-10" left.... that gives about 6 rows of badges if they are sewn touching... assuming even a bit of error in there - that is about 5 rows of badges. Assuming we can fit 3 across all the way down (I'm not sure that will be possible near the cuff...) - that would be room for about 15 badges. This is my son's first year in cubs, and he has earned 10 already. Yes - he is a "badger" one of those kids that will make a goal to earn a badge and work on the requirements to get the badge.... but following the current badge placement, with the current badges he is being given - his arm would be full by the end of the year.

Even going by the recommendation - 3" for group, 3" for area, 1.125" for six, 1.125" for each badge.... lets see - we get about 7.5" taken up by identification (leaving less than .5" between the badges total)... so about 11" for earned badges... - well we do get about 9 rows of badges - so I guess that is quite a difference... that allows for about 27 badges on the sleeve... - not quite twice as many.

I just feel there should be space set aside for "overflow"

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Re: Badge Placement

Post by Sam Wallis » Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:02 pm

we need to ensure that our programs and uniforms line up. if a cub can earn 40 badges (I havent counted) that are expeced on the sleve, and there is room for 27 we have problem.

I do FIRMLY believe that old badges should not be on the new uniform, because they are so stiff and akward. our group is replacing any badge that was on a sash with a new badge as the cubs earn them. we are also awarding them the old style badge when the earn a new badge so they can put it on their blanket. we have a 2 year supply of old badges that will go to waste if we dont.
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kaa27th
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Re: Badge Placement

Post by kaa27th » Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:37 pm

Almost all of our cubs have adopted the new uniform, even the third years, and we have given them old badges to sew on the new uniform, because it would look really odd to have new and old badges mixed. I have found that by sewing them tightly I was able to fit 3 rows of 7 on the sleeve and we have started a 4th row. Yes, they are a bit stiff, but it' only for a few more months, and then he can start fresh with the scout shirt and all new badges!
YIS
Akela (formerly Kaa),
Peterborough, ON

ayates
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Re: Badge Placement

Post by ayates » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:10 pm

The "old" badges are no different than the "older" badges that were sewn on the sleeves in the 70's. It worked then, there is no reason it can't work now. Though I asked my mother, and she said sewing on the sleeves was a pain. As a Cub the badges on the sleeve never bothered me; and I was some proud to get the sixer stripes.
Last edited by ayates on Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Angus Bickerton
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Re: Badge Placement

Post by Angus Bickerton » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:29 pm

The new badges are sweet for sewing on sleeves. You iron them on, and then quickly sew them in place with a few stitches. A lot easier than trying to pin them straight. I have recommended to parents to start at the sleeve cuff, as opposed to the elbow. It's easier, and you use maximum real estate.
Angus Bickerton
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Brockville Troop
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tedward
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Re: Badge Placement

Post by tedward » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:24 pm

^ That seems like a great tip Angus! Start at the bottom and fill the sleeve up!
Ted, DAC Central, Greater Victoria, BC

scouterguider
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Re: Badge Placement

Post by scouterguider » Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:41 pm

Yes, the old style badges are basically the same as they have been from the 70's and 80's when the badges were on the uniform before....

I unfortunately lost many of my old handbooks... I have the 1991 one (with badge sash so not much help, and the 1963 one...) - but I am pretty sure the group and area badges were smaller and in a different location on the grey shirts in 1990.... on the chest I think?

In the 1963 one, on the shirt, there was a "Group Shoulder Badge" (ie, the 1cm type) and then the badges on the rest of the arm. The six patch was on the other arm.

In 1991, there were only 27 badges. (and 5 stars)

Anyway - I said I had a plan once he had used up his official properly placed badges.... but this was on a comment about people putting badges in the wrong location.... and obviously this is a plan to do that...

That said - my plan as a parent...
I put the Area badge on the empty pocket. (shame on me, I know.)
When he runs out of space for badges... put them on the other arm. Once that is full - I am considering putting them under the pockets (similar to where the arrow point badges go on the BSA uniform...) Although I will look at other possibilities at the time and see what looks good. Maybe I can get a 4th row going too...

As a guide leader, when the Guides badge sashes were full, I made a small badge sash that hung down from their belt (like the Pathfinder sash at the time) - but in the Guide colors. I had a few girls with these extra sashes. Of course, that only works with a uniform that tucks in...

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Re: Badge Placement

Post by Scouter Harry » Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:52 pm

Scouts in our troop with new uniforms get the badge/award for the new uniform. A bit of a pain to get a new badge from the Scout Shop? Perhaps, but it looks much better than trying to mix up the new/old badges.
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Re: Badge Placement

Post by bcbagheera » Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:27 pm

Hey Angus, I thought that if you ironed on the badge, it became permanent. No need to sew, but not removable for re-using the shirt. I have been wondering what happens if you sew instead of using badge magic, and then iron your wrinkled shirt.

Angus Bickerton
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Re: Badge Placement

Post by Angus Bickerton » Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:51 am

It is not likely that the cub shirts or the Beaver vests will be re-used. They are not as hardy as the old cotton/poly blend tan shirts, or those indestructable Beaver vests (we have some of those that are 30 years old).

Best method: iron on the badges, and then sew them in place. Repeated washings will soften the glue anyway, making the shirt unusable for the next person anyhow.
Angus Bickerton
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Brockville Troop
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Hawkeye3
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Re: Badge Placement

Post by Hawkeye3 » Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:17 pm

[quote="Angus Bickerton"]It is not likely that the cub shirts or the Beaver vests will be re-used. They are not as hardy as the old cotton/poly blend tan shirts, or those indestructable Beaver vests (we have some of those that are 30 years old).[quote]

I am quite proud to say that the Beaver uniform I wore was worn by my son and is currently being shared by my daughters. As for badge placement, some Beavers put all of the crests that they earn on the back of their vest. I support this as they end up being pseudo Cub badges or awards for things they have done. It looks goofy, but it builds some pride which in the mind of that 5-7 year old, is a great thing (IMHO).

ayates
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Re: Badge Placement

Post by ayates » Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:50 pm

So we have moved to disposable rather than reusable uniforms... Something doesn't sound right about that statement in this day an age.

kaa27th
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Re: Badge Placement

Post by kaa27th » Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:58 pm

I am finding they are holding up very well, and there always will be some kids that only use them for one year, if they start cubs at age 10. My son will definitely pass his on to somebody at the end of this year. They will definitely get re-used.
YIS
Akela (formerly Kaa),
Peterborough, ON

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