New Joe Fresh Uniforms Really Disapointing

Raves, rants, and comments about the 2011 uniform change
ayates
Posts: 642
Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 6:48 am
anti_spambot: 7

Re: New Joe Fresh Uniforms Really Disapointing

Post by ayates » Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:05 pm

I love how so many people are going on record indicating their intentions to ignore BP&P for the uniform. Look out for all those suspension letters in the mail :) We are at 7 and counting...

User avatar
Errol Feldman
Posts: 532
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:02 am
anti_spambot: 0
Location: Hoorn, The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: New Joe Fresh Uniforms Really Disapointing

Post by Errol Feldman » Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:38 pm

ayates wrote:I love how so many people are going on record indicating their intentions to ignore BP&P for the uniform. Look out for all those suspension letters in the mail :) We are at 7 and counting...
My remarks concerning the Scouts Canada Awards are conform the Canadian Government Protocol for Honours and Awards and that supersedes B.P.& P. which still have the Awards on the RIGHT breast anyway. I am hoping that somebody will wake-up and realize that a clothing designer can not just change the Government Protocols to suite the fashion. I received the following information from the Protocol Office:
The wearing of orders, decorations and medals is regulated by the Canadian Orders, Decorations and Medals Directive, 1998, which describes the approved order of precedence of Canadian honours. A copy can be found on-line at the Governor General’s Web site at http://www.gg.ca (“It’s an Honour”). On the subject of unofficial honours, the Directive states the following at section 7:

7. The insignia or orders, decorations and medals not listed in this Directive, as well as foreign awards, the award of which has not been approved by the Government of Canada, shall not be mounted or worn in conjunction with orders, decorations and medals listed in this Directive.

The Chancellery confirms that Scouts medals are not part of the Canadian Honours System and are therefore not authorized for wear with insignia in the Canadian Order of Precedence. By way of explanation, only those Canadian honours created by the Sovereign are considered official and may be worn on the “Crown side” (i.e. the left side). This rule was developed by the Canadian Honours Policy Committee based on international protocol. It has been reviewed over the years and has consistently been maintained in order to preserve the integrity and value of Canadian honours.

While the proper wearing of honours is difficult to enforce, we hope that the policy is clear. We also trust that organizations and groups involved in honours will adhere to the policy and promote it among their members
I( doubt that anyone would even consider a suspension letter for wearing decorations and orders according to Canadian Rules and Regulations. EVEN our Chief commissioner and BoG do not have that kind of power, to alter Acts of Parliament.
@EDIT: Sorry forgot the last comment
Last edited by Errol Feldman on Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
Errol Feldman
Commissioner
Scouts Canada - Europe
Just an Old Dinosaur

“Do, or do not. There is no try.”
Master Yoda

Sam Wallis
Posts: 719
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:46 pm
anti_spambot: 7

Re: New Joe Fresh Uniforms Really Disapointing

Post by Sam Wallis » Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:04 pm

Allan perhaps SC will have to withdraw from canada based on Errols post?
Truth is a perception, and a individual perception is their truth

User avatar
Robert D White
Posts: 271
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:53 am
anti_spambot: 0
Location: Guelph, Ontario

Re: New Joe Fresh Uniforms Really Disapointing

Post by Robert D White » Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:59 pm

Errol,
Errol Feldman wrote: My remarks concerning the Scouts Canada Awards are conform the Canadian Government Protocol for Honours and Awards and that supersedes B.P.& P. which still have the Awards on the RIGHT breast anyway. I am hoping that somebody will wake-up and realize that a clothing designer can not just change the Government Protocols to suite the fashion. I received the following information from the Protocol Office:
Extremely enlightening, especially in light of the AGM taking place this weekend which will include changes to BP&P regarding the new uniforms. Have you had the opportunity to pass this information along to Steve Kent or someone who can raise this at the AGM?

For the record, I placed my awards on the left pocket as noted on the Uniform Insignia Placement diagrams provided by National. I plan to leave them there until I officially hear otherwise because of their size, they're a nuisance to keep removing and sewing on.
Robert White
Group Commissioner, 1st Guelph Firefighter Venturers/1st Guelph Rovers
Chaplain, Wellington Area
I'm an ISTJ

Scouter Ted
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:29 pm
anti_spambot: 7

Re: New Joe Fresh Uniforms Really Disapointing

Post by Scouter Ted » Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:44 pm

I have been a Scout Leader for 18 years and have always worn my uniform with great pride. That's finished now. The new uniforms are not in any way practical; there made of the cheapest material I've ever come across and Scouts Canada has not provided the required sizes in either the Scout sizes or the adult sizes. I don't object to the red shirts but I do object to the light coloured pants. Whoever had the final approval of the uniform should be ashamed of themselves. Also I will continue to follow the wearing of orders, decorations and medals as regulated by the Canadian Orders, Decorations and Medals Directive, 1998, which describes the approved order of precedence of Canadian honours. Wearing then any different could and would insult Veterans which is something that should be avoided.

Angus Bickerton
Posts: 562
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:55 pm
anti_spambot: 7
Location: Brockville, Ontario

Re: New Joe Fresh Uniforms Really Disapointing

Post by Angus Bickerton » Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:31 am

Whether I like the new uniform or not, I would still wear it with pride. Heck, if it was sackcloth and ashes, it wouldn't matter that much to me, because it is what the uniform stands for that matters more. My necker and Gilwell woggle and beads mean much more than the shirts and pants.

Could the roll out have been better? Unquestionably. The size situation should be remedied in the near future, so it will become a non-issue.

Light pants a problem? That's a matter of personal taste. I will not buy the SC uniform pants, because there are better cargo pants made of technical fabric for a price that is not much higher than the Joe Fresh, but for a lot of leaders, they won't care.

Shirt material too cheap? It sure is hard to iron, I'll give you that, but the new material is a lot more breathable than the tan coffin that I wore last summer in 100% humidity. Quality could be higher, but at $32.00, it is hard to complain about the price. It is relatively strong, and the "relaxed look" is intended, as that is what our youth wanted. While a technical fabric would have been ideal, it is just too expensive. Scout, Venturer and Rover- aged youth that I have spoken with have been quite pleased.

Honours and awards. This seems to be the biggest problem for the new uniform, but it should be the easiest to fix. Switching the Scouting awards and the section insignia to the left breast was not a problem for anyone who was not military (for instance, I had no idea that this would be a problem, but have since been educated by Errol), but for those who are, it flies in the face of Gov't of Canada protocol. Also, the mean little Canadian flag should be removed from the pocket, and replaced with a nice big one at the top of the left shoulder, under which the counsel insignia should be placed. While we are not trying to look like the military, we should mesh with their protocols as much as we can given our long history of cooperation. Fortunately the flag and honours and awards can be modified with relative ease, provide there is enough support from the membership. If enough scouters contact national about the issue of honours/awards and the flag, it could be fixed by next fall, with everyone sewing just a bit more than they otherwise would (it's good for dexterity).
Angus Bickerton
Troop Scouter
Brockville Troop
1st Brockville Group Committee
1st Gilwell 2011 (Colony) 2013 (Pack)

There is no armour made that can withstand the truth - Karsa Orlong

Sam Wallis
Posts: 719
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:46 pm
anti_spambot: 7

Re: New Joe Fresh Uniforms Really Disapointing

Post by Sam Wallis » Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:25 am

my 2 cents on this. the pride should be in wearing a uniform for the organization. if your proud to be a scout its about scouting, not the cloth.

and on the pants, maybe its just me, I dont see many youth or adults wearing the pants. perhaps thats a local thing, but I dont know anyone who does.
Truth is a perception, and a individual perception is their truth

User avatar
Errol Feldman
Posts: 532
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:02 am
anti_spambot: 0
Location: Hoorn, The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: New Joe Fresh Uniforms Really Disapointing

Post by Errol Feldman » Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:26 pm

Sam Wallis wrote:my 2 cents on this. the pride should be in wearing a uniform for the organization. if your proud to be a scout its about scouting, not the cloth.

and on the pants, maybe its just me, I dont see many youth or adults wearing the pants. perhaps thats a local thing, but I dont know anyone who does.

I couldn't waer them if if I wanted; they don't come in my sixe :lol: :lol: :lol:
Errol Feldman
Commissioner
Scouts Canada - Europe
Just an Old Dinosaur

“Do, or do not. There is no try.”
Master Yoda

jkeess
Posts: 127
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2011 3:49 pm
anti_spambot: 7

Re: New Joe Fresh Uniforms Really Disapointing

Post by jkeess » Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:03 pm

Sam Wallis wrote:my 2 cents on this. the pride should be in wearing a uniform for the organization. if your proud to be a scout its about scouting, not the cloth.

and on the pants, maybe its just me, I dont see many youth or adults wearing the pants. perhaps thats a local thing, but I dont know anyone who does.
Indeed, until you actually go camping and are trotting around in useless, cold and chafy wet cotton.

Generally, here, no, we don't care about the pants. And if cubs wear tan pants so they don't have to buy a new set of pants upon becoming scouts, power to them.

Sam Wallis
Posts: 719
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:46 pm
anti_spambot: 7

Re: New Joe Fresh Uniforms Really Disapointing

Post by Sam Wallis » Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:09 pm

I only ever saw the old uniform worn to camp for opening and worn for scouts own and closing. to make the uniform camp wear just makes no sense to me. the uniform is indoor wear. at camp your probably wearing a jacket of some kind anyway
Truth is a perception, and a individual perception is their truth

Jim Buckland
Posts: 52
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:06 am
anti_spambot: 7
Location: Belleville , Ontario

Re: New Joe Fresh Uniforms Really Disapointing

Post by Jim Buckland » Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:36 pm

My memories of being a Wolf Cub,Scout, Rover, and Leader from the mid 1950's are that the Scouting uniform was only worn to and from camp, morning Flag Brake and inspection, and Scouts own or Church Service.Even during Scouting meetings after opening cemermonies the Scouting Shirt, hat and shoes were removed and a T or sports shirt were worn until closeing ceremonies and the hat was put back on and running shoes were taken off and your shoes or boots were put back on.I do not understand Scouting people or Leaders who stay in complete Scouting uniforms when they setup or takedown camp or play sports. I guess I was spoiled spending most of my time as a Youth member and Leader in Air Force or Military Scouting Districts where the Military are constantly changeing their uniforms( Orders of Dress) to suit the occasion!

Angus Bickerton
Posts: 562
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:55 pm
anti_spambot: 7
Location: Brockville, Ontario

Re: New Joe Fresh Uniforms Really Disapointing

Post by Angus Bickerton » Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:02 pm

Jim Buckland wrote:My memories of being a Wolf Cub,Scout, Rover, and Leader from the mid 1950's are that the Scouting uniform was only worn to and from camp, morning Flag Brake and inspection, and Scouts own or Church Service.Even during Scouting meetings after opening cemermonies the Scouting Shirt, hat and shoes were removed and a T or sports shirt were worn until closeing ceremonies and the hat was put back on and running shoes were taken off and your shoes or boots were put back on.I do not understand Scouting people or Leaders who stay in complete Scouting uniforms when they setup or takedown camp or play sports. I guess I was spoiled spending most of my time as a Youth member and Leader in Air Force or Military Scouting Districts where the Military are constantly changeing their uniforms( Orders of Dress) to suit the occasion!
This is a good point, and the reason why there is a supply of Joe Fresh activity wear, which uses technical fabrics, at the Scout Shop. The red golf shirt for leaders is nice, and there are section-specific coloured shirts (grey, green, blue, and red) that are great for summer camping (and don't stain easily). As the formal uniform is required, cotton was used because it is cheap, and therefore the shirt does not cost a lot. As I and others have said in several posts, were the shirt made of a technical fabric (and therefore suitable for camping), it would be much more expensive. The activity wear is optional, so you can buy it if you want.

When I was a Scout, we were instructed to wear our shirts and neckers, but the sash was forbidden at camp, as it was for formal dress only. My daughter's cub pack wears their sashes for everything, and it drives me nuts seeing a kid playing dodge ball with a sash threatening to strangle him (risk management :roll:)! My view is the sash should come off right after inspection and opening, and go back on only for closing. It is both a safety issue and a propriety issue, imo. You don't see leaders wearing their long service or merit awards all the time, only at formal ceremonies. Otherwise, we look like jumped-up dictators from the 1970s.

The formal meeting uniform is not meant as camping gear, and should not be worn as such. It should be worn at camps only as Jim describes above. Beyond that, the only uniform required while camping is the necker, fastened with a woggle or using the friendship knot.
Angus Bickerton
Troop Scouter
Brockville Troop
1st Brockville Group Committee
1st Gilwell 2011 (Colony) 2013 (Pack)

There is no armour made that can withstand the truth - Karsa Orlong

Jim Buckland
Posts: 52
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:06 am
anti_spambot: 7
Location: Belleville , Ontario

Re: New Joe Fresh Uniforms Really Disapointing

Post by Jim Buckland » Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:47 pm

Thank you Angus, I forgot to mention the neckerchief.Our neckechief identified our Scouting Group and after 1960 our District and usually was only worn at Group meetings and activities for opening and closeing ceremonies.For Group only camps and meetings our neckerchief was folded and carried in our pocket and worn only for opening and closeing ceremonies. In Meetings,Camps and activities where there was several Groups and or Districts present everyone wore their Scouting neckerchief but the front was usually tucked into the shirt like American Military ties or tucked into the front of the t shirt so it was not loose.Our Scouting neckerchief identified the Scouting Group or District. Even Leaders wore their neckerchiefs so us youth could see or tell them apart at a distance.

Sashes came in when I became a Troop Scouter and I told my Scouts that the Sash was only to be worn for opening and closeing ceremonies when wearing your Scouting shirt( never during games).Most of my Scouts carried their sashes in their packsacks with their Scout shirts when we went on activities, hikes or camps and we wore our activitity T shirt most of the time.

User avatar
Robert D White
Posts: 271
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:53 am
anti_spambot: 0
Location: Guelph, Ontario

Re: New Joe Fresh Uniforms Really Disapointing

Post by Robert D White » Fri Dec 16, 2011 4:35 pm

I'm enjoying the new uniform. There are limitations - because of the sizing the neck on my 4XL shirt makes me look like a turtle and the collar sticks way below my necker. But I actually find it more comfortable than the old tan necker.

I'm also fortunate that I was invovled with an organization which changed uniforms and the way they were worn at least twice during my time with them. There will always be people who will have an emotional attachment to the former style, but if the organization moves on, so do we.

I'm also a stickler for abiding by the rules so, for the moment, my honours and awards on on the left shirt pocket. Not to slight anyone, but to be in line with Scouts Canada's current practice. If, and when, they decide to comply with government protocol, I'll switch. Perhaps a few calls/letters from veterans or active servicemen/women may make National change it's mind.

Otherwise, I've noted my concerns in the appropriate places and will patiently wait for more changes, if and when they come.
Robert White
Group Commissioner, 1st Guelph Firefighter Venturers/1st Guelph Rovers
Chaplain, Wellington Area
I'm an ISTJ

Scouter Harry
Posts: 39
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:34 am
anti_spambot: 7

Re: New Joe Fresh Uniforms Really Disapointing

Post by Scouter Harry » Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:38 am

I'm looking forward to getting a new uniform and will for next year. At this point, our troop is 25 percent new 75 old. The kids with the new uniforms look much more relaxed and at ease than the ones with the old, especially with the sash.

The only thing that throws me a curve is we have one second year with a new uniform, meaning I've had to make a couple of trips to the scout shop to get him the new challenge badge, but as there's one in London with really comprehensive hours its not so much of a bother.
Harry Shnider, MCIP
Scout Councillor, 68th London
1st Gilwell, 05 (Colony); 07 (Pack)
twitter: harryshnider
http://www.68thscouts.ca
Team Clove Hitch -- Assemble!

bgilchrist
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 6:10 pm
anti_spambot: 7

Re: New Joe Fresh Uniforms Really Disapointing

Post by bgilchrist » Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:05 am

My biggest beef with the old uniforms were that they were somehow sized for short obese people with short arms and pencil necks. In order to find one where the neck and sleeves fit properly, the rest of the shirt was a parachute. I was able to address this by rolling the sleeves and keeping the collar unbuttoned.

I was hopeful that the new uniforms would address this. Regardless of the sizing, I am extremely disappointed in the new uniforms for the following reasons:

Color - Red for leaders? Really? It should be the same color as section. You're not going to mistake a scout for a leader, but a rover for a leader? easily done

The biggest beef - badges on the sleeve and "getting rid of" the sash and cords

My scouts want to show off all their badges all the time. Not stuff them into a book on their shelves where they can't be seen. I've told them to wear the old as long as possible ( easy, since our scout shop hasn't had stock of the new in months), and that they can wear the sash with the new uniforms.

Angus Bickerton
Posts: 562
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:55 pm
anti_spambot: 7
Location: Brockville, Ontario

Re: New Joe Fresh Uniforms Really Disapointing

Post by Angus Bickerton » Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:42 am

bgilchrist wrote:My biggest beef with the old uniforms were that they were somehow sized for short obese people with short arms and pencil necks. In order to find one where the neck and sleeves fit properly, the rest of the shirt was a parachute. I was able to address this by rolling the sleeves and keeping the collar unbuttoned.

I was hopeful that the new uniforms would address this. Regardless of the sizing, I am extremely disappointed in the new uniforms for the following reasons:

Color - Red for leaders? Really? It should be the same color as section. You're not going to mistake a scout for a leader, but a rover for a leader? easily done

The biggest beef - badges on the sleeve and "getting rid of" the sash and cords

My scouts want to show off all their badges all the time. Not stuff them into a book on their shelves where they can't be seen. I've told them to wear the old as long as possible ( easy, since our scout shop hasn't had stock of the new in months), and that they can wear the sash with the new uniforms.
Sizing issues for off-the-rack clothing are endemic. My shoulders fit fine into an XL, but the neck is two sizes larger than it should be, and the sleeves are easily 36-37, thus (I have a 32-33 sleeve) are made for an orangutan. That is my lot in life, to find 161/2 neck shirts with 32-33 sleeves, but broad shoulders. The legacy of short stumpy parents.

Red for leaders was chosen simply because 90% of Rovers are also leaders, allowing them to wear the same shirt for both Rovering and leading. I am a leader in two sections, so if the same colour as the section, I'd need two shirts. This is true of a lot of leaders. Red represented the "biggest bang for the buck", as it solved the Rover problem. It also allows leaders to stand out in a crowd.

Badges on the sleeve is back to the original for Scouting. The sash, simply put, was dangerous, and not as simple to remove as the old plain red sash that I wore back in the 1970's and 1980s. Same with the lanyards (which replaced the bronze, silver and gold chains that I once wore), which can hook on things (but I admit, I always liked them). Badges on the sleeve works, displays the youths achievements, and there is no sash to catch on things.

I agree that a badge book or a banner is a dumb idea. The whole point of the uniform is to display the accomplishment, not tack it to your bedroom wall.
Angus Bickerton
Troop Scouter
Brockville Troop
1st Brockville Group Committee
1st Gilwell 2011 (Colony) 2013 (Pack)

There is no armour made that can withstand the truth - Karsa Orlong

kaa27th
Posts: 188
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2010 12:58 pm
anti_spambot: 7

Re: New Joe Fresh Uniforms Really Disapointing

Post by kaa27th » Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:37 am

I love the badges on the sleeves, even though I have to sew them on times two kids, lol. I found the sashes never sat right, and the kids hated them, they also hated the tan shirts, they don't mind putting the grey ones on at all. If you sew the badges tightly you can get a lot of them on there, no problem at all.
YIS
Akela (formerly Kaa),
Peterborough, ON

Angus Bickerton
Posts: 562
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:55 pm
anti_spambot: 7
Location: Brockville, Ontario

Re: New Joe Fresh Uniforms Really Disapointing

Post by Angus Bickerton » Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:01 am

kaa27th wrote:I love the badges on the sleeves, even though I have to sew them on times two kids, lol. I found the sashes never sat right, and the kids hated them, they also hated the tan shirts, they don't mind putting the grey ones on at all. If you sew the badges tightly you can get a lot of them on there, no problem at all.
THIS is why we changed uniforms. They are now simpler, more comfortable, and when done properly, they look better. Half the kids in our pack have sashes that NEVER sit properly on the shoulder, but always fold over, due to the shape of the particular kid. Kids with squared shoulders are okay with sashes, but a kid with a rounded-shoulder always has the sash rolling over, despite being attached at the epaulette.

The Scout and Venturer uniforms are definitely the nicest though.
Angus Bickerton
Troop Scouter
Brockville Troop
1st Brockville Group Committee
1st Gilwell 2011 (Colony) 2013 (Pack)

There is no armour made that can withstand the truth - Karsa Orlong

bcbagheera
Posts: 125
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:50 pm
anti_spambot: 7
Location: Surrey, BC

Re: New Joe Fresh Uniforms Really Disapointing

Post by bcbagheera » Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:36 pm

Have yet to see a new cub uniform, but i know i hated mine grey pullover when I was a cub many moons ago. As to the look of the leader shirts, I think they are horrendous, always wrinkled and untucked. If they try to force me into a uniform change, I think it will be the end of my time as a leader. (Caution, Red Shirts can be hazardous to your health, just ask the people that beamed down with Captain Kirk) :D

Post Reply