Should Rover Scouts be called Youth

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jkeess
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Should Rover Scouts be called Youth

Post by jkeess » Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:24 pm

Virtually all of the scouters I took WB I and II with found that they had some fun, but learned very little.

This brings up another point - SC needs to stop treating rovers as "youth." It's a bit ridiculous to be married, have two university degrees and a full-time job but be considered a "youth" by SC.

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Should Rover Scouts be called Youth

Post by Nick Pearson » Wed Jun 29, 2011 7:56 pm

While this topic of what to call Rovers should be brought to another thread, I will quickly try to answer your thought.

Rovers, under the B.P.&P., are not considered youth, nor are they considered adult volunteers. They are a third category called Rover Adult. This distinction's potential is largely underutilized in the rest of the B.P.&P., but I digress.

We are considered program participants, which grant us the freedom to run our own program, and all the benefits from SC that avails us, without the burden of responsibilities and lack of program that pure volunteers have. Yes we still have responsibility, but to a lesser degree.

Rovering is for young adults to incubate and properly transition from youth to adulthood, with a support network around them of wise adults and similarly minded youth. I would say getting married and having two university degrees matches up perfectly with Rovering.

If anyone thinks less of you, and considers you juvenile, because you are a Rover, you have 2 options. Prove them wrong, or send them my way.

I'll set them straight.



--Edit Addition--

Also sounds like you aren't looking for WB; you're looking for advanced skills training. While WB2 does go into that, perhaps there are specific topics you want covered. Some councils do offer these course, and I would keep my ear out listening for them. Perhaps, as part of your Rover crew program, your crew could bring in a knowledgeable expert to train you, or learn enough to put on a small course. I'm sure the newer leaders would LOVE to learn from your years of experience.
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Re: Should Rover Scouts be called Youth

Post by Jim Buckland » Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:16 pm

How you are registered is the answer or key to this question. If you register as a Youth member Rover Scout you will probably be called a Youth member? If you register as a Volunteer Adult Leader Rover Scout you will be called an adult leader? If you are an adult member in a Youth Program-Rover Scouts you should register as a Volunteer Support Adult Scouter Rover crew, then you will no longer be called a Youth? Okay?

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Re: Should Rover Scouts be called Youth

Post by jkeess » Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:37 pm

Well, this is my point. Rovers hsould have on registration, they should not fill out "P" forms, and they should be treated as a reserve of leadership to help run the greater programme

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Re: Should Rover Scouts be called Youth

Post by makr » Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:07 pm

Well, here is where you're half right.

Rovers is a youth program because when a Rover Crew meets, they decide on their program for the year, which while service to others (through leadership, or planning area kubkar rallies or attending Jamborees as OOS) should be a part of it. Service to self also applies here. Young people between 18-26 make some the most crucial life changes one can ever make. Whether that's earning a degree (or two), or getting a Red Seal certification, the majority of life-altering decisions happen in this age group. Which is partly why Rovers doesn't have a *set* program, at the moment. The Rover "program" is personal development.

Rovers is the transitional stage where they officially get to play dual-roles. They're old enough to lead Beavers, Cubs and Scouts, but still young enough to be a peer example to Scouts and Venturers. And which for Scouts. My Rover crew which was fairly stable and active for six years, attended camps, ran area events, some of our members were leaders in other sections. All the while keeping weekly fun meetings for us, because we all need a break from school/work/whatever. Taking a 2-3 hour break every week, *is* a service to yourself. We were a presence in the Council, and still are in other formats now. My point here is that while the Rover Program doesn't currently produce awards, or have the measurable effects of a scout troop; doesn't mean that Rovers as a youth section should be discounted because "they're adults."

I should point out through virtually all of this, because we were vocal about the Rover program and not being typical rovers funnelled into pure leadership, we often heard "If they aren't interested in being leaders, there's no place for them in Scouting." To which I say, they're missing the point of the scout program and realize that learning and development doesn't magically stop at 18.


Now, let me be clear. If someone at 18 wants to be a full time leader, that's AWESOME. That however has a major time commitment that not many people can handle at 18. We should encourage more Venturers to stay in Rovering through university or what have you, and then by 26, you more then likely have a fairly stable individual who can handle more work. Perhaps putting some of those rovers that can't do much in terms of program as part of your group committee; after-all, they just went through the program and can articulate what they liked and hated at a business level to improve the group.

tl;dr Rovers are not pawns of the group. If anything, they should be treated like Queens, because they can do anything they want if they set their mind to it and that should be respected.

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Re: Should Rover Scouts be called Youth

Post by jkeess » Sat Jul 02, 2011 6:29 am

Can you explain where you're finding me "half-wrong", then?

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Re: Should Rover Scouts be called Youth

Post by makr » Sat Jul 02, 2011 6:27 pm

Simply that
and they should be treated as a reserve of leadership to help run the greater programme
Too often Rovers get tapped to run sections at 18, and burn out and leave the movement by 22. I've seen it happen, and it's due to leadership that only sees three years down the road. All throughout running a Rover program, we were constantly put down by the other groups and area/council for "not stepping up and helping out" Never-mind, some more damning remarks made by folks in the PCC level towards Rovers that don't wish to be leaders.

Yes, they should, but Rovers should never feel like they have been forced into leadership positions.

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Re: Should Rover Scouts be called Youth

Post by Kaylee Galipeau » Mon Jul 04, 2011 1:57 am

I think Nick Summed it up nicely! But to try and simplify to how I understand it:

There are two types of registrations. They are NOT Adult and youth. They are Participant & Volunteer.
-> It allows under 18 volunteers to be recognized as such
-> It allows a distinction between Rovers and leaders (although of course, many are both)

Rovers is a separate participant section. Rovers have advisers just like Venturers do (albeit older ones) and many crews lead active and fulfilling programs- a great place to expand your Scouting journey & experiences, but not necessarily be a full time leader. I love Rovers because it allows Scouting members the opportunity to continue their journey of personal development in the movement.

Personally I am a rover, leader, & service scouter. I see rovers as very different from the last two. Being chunked in with younger members that are not as far on this journey does not seem ridiculous or offensive to me. By the end of my rover career I will have at least one degree, most likely be married, have a full time career, and maybe a child. However, those milestones to me are just more stops on my journey of self discovery and improvement, just like getting a driver's license and a high school diploma once were. As a rover, I feel the label "participant" is appropriate.
YiS,
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Re: Should Rover Scouts be called Youth

Post by Jim Buckland » Mon Jul 04, 2011 6:47 am

I apoligize Kaylee, you are correct. The classification titles, now, are Participant and Volunteer.

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Re: Should Rover Scouts be called Youth

Post by jkeess » Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:35 pm

makr wrote:Simply that
Yes, they should, but Rovers should never feel like they have been forced into leadership positions.
And they aren't. We ask our rovers to help us keep up adult numbers when we have camps/activities going. They usually get drawn in themselves.

As for "sharing the journey" etc., I understand your position, however, if you want people to act like adults, you really ought to treat them as such. Perhaps it's just my experience, but it has been insisted upon at area meetings that rovers are, in fact, youth and registered as such in MMS. Since most of our rovers are also leaders, it makes for this interesting flip-flop of roles where rovers are treated as "youth" by certain personalities when it is considered convenient.

Thsi might seem like a small difference, but it leads to a very different organisation attitude towards rovers. This is made very clear when we correspond with out Network colleagues in the UK who are more or less free from supervision and truly organise themselves (although network is a different programme).

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Re: Should Rover Scouts be called Youth

Post by Kaylee Galipeau » Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:33 am

I disagree- I think that being "treated as adults" is not solved by a title. Which is irrelevant anyway, as I have already stated there is no title of "youth" in any registration.

Again: there are two: adult & participant. Rovers are participants in the rover program. If there are issues in your area surrounding members being "treated as adults" I doubt the problem would be solved be not being registered as "youth" because: A) They aren't & B) you still feel there is a problem.
YiS,
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Re: Should Rover Scouts be called Youth

Post by Errol Feldman » Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:58 am

Kaylee Galipeau wrote:I disagree- I think that being "treated as adults" is not solved by a title. Which is irrelevant anyway, as I have already stated there is no title of "youth" in any registration.
Again: there are two: adult & participant. Rovers are participants in the rover program. If there are issues in your area surrounding members being "treated as adults" I doubt the problem would be solved be not being registered as "youth" because: A) They aren't & B) you still feel there is a problem.
You are quite right about registration Kaylee, but unfortunately the registration system MMS only has two categories: Volunteer which is broken down in roles; and Youth. So whatever the forms say, the system registers them as Youth. PERHAPS, and let us hope so, the new AMS will be able to make that distinction.
As you say there are two forms: http://www.scouts.ca/dnn/LinkClick.aspx ... tabid=2513
PROGRAM PARTICIPANT ENROLMENT FORM which is for participants up to and including "Rover Scouts (18-26)
and there is the http://www.scouts.ca/dnn/LinkClick.aspx ... tabid=2513
APPLICATION FOR MEMBERSHIP AND APPOINTMENT OF VOLUNTEERS.

That's the way it is right now.

AND if you look on the website itself: http://www.scouts.ca/dnn/scouters/BPPAd ... fault.aspx You will also see that the forms are referred to as
2011 - 2012 Registration Forms
Youth / Jeunes
Adult / Adultes
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Re: Should Rover Scouts be called Youth

Post by Liam Morland » Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:51 pm

It's worth noting that WOSM prefers the term "young people" to "youth". "young people" is a broader word. In common parlance, "youth" typically refers to those older than childhood, usually in the teens, to somewhere in the 20s. In some contexts, "youth" refers to people up to mid-30s. They are all just words used to label categories of people.
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Re: Should Rover Scouts be called Youth

Post by jkeess » Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:18 pm

Kaylee Galipeau wrote:I disagree- I think that being "treated as adults" is not solved by a title. Which is irrelevant anyway, as I have already stated there is no title of "youth" in any registration.

Again: there are two: adult & participant. Rovers are participants in the rover program. If there are issues in your area surrounding members being "treated as adults" I doubt the problem would be solved be not being registered as "youth" because: A) They aren't & B) you still feel there is a problem.
The way the system (MMS) is set up is reflective of the BP&P, which can be used to bring down very tight controls on rover activities, treating them as "just another section" (which they are not.) Rovers actively contribute service and were originally designed as a service club, not an older scout troop.

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Re: Should Rover Scouts be called Youth

Post by Errol Feldman » Fri Jul 08, 2011 3:13 am

jkeess wrote:The way the system (MMS) is set up is reflective of the BP&P, which can be used to bring down very tight controls on rover activities, treating them as "just another section" (which they are not.) Rovers actively contribute service and were originally designed as a service club, not an older scout troop.
Technically you may be right here John; but I have yet to see any real interference "from above"in the way Rover Crews conduct themselves. In my experienc e over the years they are pretty much left to manage their own affairs and treated as young adults, which most of them are. Idon't mean age-wise, but rather conduct wise, regfardless of age, here.

NICK? MIKE? KAYLEE? Correct me if I am wrong.
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Re: Should Rover Scouts be called Youth

Post by Nick Pearson » Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:38 pm

For the most part, you are correct. They are left alone, to do what they please, just like all other sections.

Occasionally there is pressure put on them to "toe the line", what ever (or whoever's line) that line may be. Some people see Rovers as individuals old enough to be leaders, and that's what they should be doing. "Rovering" is seen as slacking and not a valid option.

Now, that is not the majority, nor the rule. Interference is rarely more than pressure (poorly) applied. The most noteworthy exception would have been the CCRRT debacle (I've only heard 3rd hand accounts of the issue, do not further try to discuss that topic). I could list more, but I might be considered too close to the subject matter to be considered objective.


Over all the support system doesn't touch them, and doesn't quite know how to handle them. They have collectively chosen to just leave them alone. Rovers are left to themselves, for better or for worse.
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Re: Should Rover Scouts be called Youth

Post by Mike Stewart » Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:49 pm

To answer your question Errol, in my experience my crew has always been treated with respect by the support structure. We are effectively autonomous from our Group Committee in most things, and we have free reign to run our program as we see fit. We are well known for the service that we do, so the majority of Scouters that we meet at events have nothing but great respect for Rovers and everything we do.

I can understand where John is coming from though. There is a very small minority of Scouters who unfortunately think of Rovers as "youth" and don't treat them with the same respect they would treat other Scouters. Though, I find that most of the Scouters that fit into this category typically also treat young leaders as less than fully qualified leaders, so I don't think the title on our registration form plays into it.

I agree with Kaylee in that simply changing a word on our registration form is not going to change what people think about us. The people who know the BP&P well enough to remember the wording used to describe us are probably not the people that need to be swayed. Seeing as there is some debate in this thread over what word is actually in the BP&P, it goes to show that most Scouters probably aren't completely sure which words are used where anyway.

Rovers is a section and it has a program, even if that program is service, we are still Participants in a program. I don't see how the title "Participant" is inadequate for Rovers. Personally though, I don't really care. At the end of the day, call us whatever you want in MMS, it won't change who we are or what we do.
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Re: Should Rover Scouts be called Youth

Post by jkeess » Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:03 pm

Fair enough on previous points, but since those who are usually interfering and controlling fall back on regulation, administration and authority, removing this backstop wouldn't hurt.

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Re: Should Rover Scouts be called Youth

Post by Scouter Richie » Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:20 am

After reading through this I think we can close the thread by saying that the terms participant and volunteer should be used consistently in place of youth and adult.
Rovers are indeed program participates and when their program includes service to other sections they should be treated like the adult volunteers that they are.
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Re: Should Rover Scouts be called Youth

Post by Errol Feldman » Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:37 am

Agree with you Scouter Richie, and the thread will end if no one else has any comments. But as a moderator I do not lock threads here unless absolutely necessary.
No doubt my fellow moderator will agree that it is not really Scoutlike to prevent discussion ;) ;)
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