Top Rover Award

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Liam Morland
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Re: Top Rover Award

Post by Liam Morland » Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:46 pm

The BSA has three Scouting program sections each with their own top award:
  • Cub Scouts (6-10), Arrow of Light
  • Boy Scouts (11-17), Eagle Scout
  • Venturing (14-20; co-ed), Silver Award
Note the age overlap between Boy Scouts and Venturing. Boys of that age may join either or both. They must be active with a Scout troop to earn merit badges or Scout ranks. Older Boy Scouts typically hold youth leadership roles like Senior Patrol Leader, Quartermaster, etc. The Venturing program is very different from Scouts Canada Venturing. A typical BSA Venturing crew has about 25 members.

For various reasons, the Eagle Scout has far more public recognition than the others. I think this is deliberate.
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Re: Top Rover Award

Post by norma » Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:36 pm

ayates wrote:
norma wrote:I don't see why. Scouts Canada is a 5-26 program.
There are some 800 Rovers in all of Canada. We haven't even been able to get the public to appreciate awards at either the Scout or Venturer levels (thus the DofE push). Trying to get the public to pay attention to an award that maybe a handful of people might be interested in? There might quite well be value in the Rover program, I have no experience to know either way, but I do know we don't want to place the focus there. I guess that's committing hari kari in a Rover forum :)
What I meant was that each section had a 'top award' and we push for recognition of that Award. Thus you would push for the recognition of the Rover Top Award, but in the meantime you would also push for the "Chief Scout's Award" at the Scout level, the "Queen's Venturer Award" at the Venturer level.

So the push should be that 14 yr should be getting their 'top award' of Chief Scout's
18 yr should be getting their 'top award' of Queen's Venturer
26 yr should be getting their 'top award' of (Rovers Top Award)

But then I also think that 10 yr should be getting their 'top award' of (Cubs Top Award)
and 8 yr should be getting their 'top award' of (Beavers Top Award)

But the emphasis shouldn't *stop* at 18, only because the Americans Scout program stops at 18 ... ours isn't supposed to, Canadian Program is supposed to continue to 26 so the Rover Award would be the 'Ultimate' Scouting Youth Award.
The award for a 13 (or 14, still not sure when Scouts ends as it seems to keep changing with every Scouter I talk to) should be significant. For someone that young to manifest the Leadership, Citizenship, Personal Development and Outdoor Skills is significant.
The award for an 18 should also be significant. For someone to have the dedication to achieve while going through the teen years is significant.
But the award for a 26 should also be significant.
But the requirements for the 26 yr should also be significant as they are adults and they have life experience and opportunities that a 13 or 18 wouldn't have access to.

Liam Morland wrote:For various reasons, the Eagle Scout has far more public recognition than the others. I think this is deliberate.
The most obvious being that the Eagle Scout Award has been around for 100 years (introduced in 1911) where the Venturing program was only introduced in 1998 (14 years ago)
The majority of society will likely not know that the Venturing program exists, just like the majority of society still does not realize that Scouts Canada is co-ed, nor that Scouts Canada is no longer named 'Boy Scouts of Canada'.

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Re: Top Rover Award

Post by Sam Wallis » Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:58 pm

probably if we are serious about people not thinking we are called boy scouts of canada we should paint over the name on some of our properties.
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Re: Top Rover Award

Post by Sam Wallis » Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:40 pm

I have seen thousands of resumes, never seen CSA, never seen QVA, never seen the DOE. once saw a Eagle though. if we cant get our recipients to believe in these enough to put the award on a resume, we wont get the public to believe in them.

I do like the idea of the bar to the QVA or whatever

we might get slightly more traction if we aligned the names. CSA, QVA. add in beavers (I wouldnt) and cubs (that I would)

say chief cub award, chief scout award, chief venture award, adult bar to the CVA.
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Re: Top Rover Award

Post by norma » Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:51 pm

Sam Wallis wrote:we might get slightly more traction if we aligned the names. CSA, QVA. add in beavers (I wouldnt) and cubs (that I would)

say chief cub award, chief scout award, chief venture award, adult bar to the CVA.
The UK Scouts have done Chief Scout's Award for each level, then designated Bronze (beavers), Silver (cubs), Gold (scouts), then Diamond and Platinum (though not sure the exact order) for Explorer and Network to complete (those two are a bit more complicated than the straight forwardness of the younger sections, but if I actually read through it would probably be less confusing lol ... but think its you do one by being 'further challenged' from the Gold level, and then more challenged for the last, but it is more of a personal challenge than the younger section where everyone does basically the same thing to get it)

and the problem with your naming scheme ... the award is not that the Scout who achieved it is 'chief' but that the 'Chief Scout of Canada' is issuing the award ;)

The progression now is that the Chief Scout awards to the Scouts, the Queen (so Governor General) awards to the Venturers ... not sure there is something 'higher' that could award to a Rover, but maybe a 'bar to' would fit
but to scale down ... the National Commisioner could give to Cubs, and the Council Commisioner to the Beavers? ;) So a National Cub, and Council Beaver? lol

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Re: Top Rover Award

Post by Sam Wallis » Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:51 am

ok, my naming doesnt work

perhaps the Eagle gets more recognition because it is a six + year journey to acomplish it, rather than a couple of 3-4 year journeys. thing making the playoffs twice vs winning the championship once.
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Re: Top Rover Award

Post by Jody » Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:06 am

I have seen thousands of resumes, never seen CSA, never seen QVA, never seen the DOE. once saw a Eagle though. if we cant get our recipients to believe in these enough to put the award on a resume, we wont get the public to believe in them.

I do like the idea of the bar to the QVA or whatever

we might get slightly more traction if we aligned the names. CSA, QVA. add in beavers (I wouldnt) and cubs (that I would)

say chief cub award, chief scout award, chief venture award, adult bar to the CVA.
Ahhhh....Sam, you hit one of my sore spots:

I am extremely disappointed that no one in Scouts Canada seems to understand the difference between a Queen's Venturer and a holder of the Chief Scout Award.

The best manifestation of that lack of understanding is the Adult Recognition Award that is allowed to be worn by CSA recipients.

UPDATE: What I say next is now being challenged and some or all of it may not be accurate...we are trying to sort it out (these were things I was told 36 years ago when I received my QV):

The QV is not a mere award. It is, for the lack of a better term, a "title". One does not "earn" the "award". One "becomes" a QV. It is bestowed by Royal Warrant. You are entitled to put the initials "QV" after your name in the same way that other titles bestowed by the Queen are recognized.

Put a bar "on the QVA"? Well, there is no QVA and you'd better check with the Queen before raising the rank of her current title holder.

The Adult Recognition Award shows that Scouts Canada either doesn't understand the difference between its own awards or, in its self-defeating race to appear egalitarian, just doesn't care.

I'm no Monarchist but I'd dare say even Johnny Yank would drop his Vulture Scout Award to the floor and stand wide-eyed and drooling over the thought of receiving an actual Title bestowed by The Actual Queen. These things have universal appeal (even to our Republican cousins to the south). If only Scouts Canada had time for a little "grey-haired" leadership, perhaps they could learn a thing or two about their own organization.
Last edited by Jody on Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Top Rover Award

Post by Errol Feldman » Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:38 am

First of all it takes a minimum of 6 months as a Life Scout plus minimum 6 months as Star Scout lus minimum 6 months as 1st Class Scout; and time (no minimums required between)needed to pass Tenderfoot, 2nd Class and 1st Class. Let's say a total of 2 years before starting Eagle requirements (except certain Merit Badges). And Eagle must be completed by 18th birthday.

Scouts are minimum 10 and grade 5.

I do NOT agree that Eagle is more difficult than King/Queen/(old) CSA...today, well...
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Re: Top Rover Award

Post by ayates » Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:47 am

Jody wrote:The QV is not a mere award. It is, for the lack of a better term, a "title". One does not "earn" the "award". One "becomes" a QV. It is bestowed by Royal Warrant. You are entitled to put the initials "QV" after your name in the same way that other titles bestowed by the Queen are recognized.
Wow! I had never heard that before.

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Re: Top Rover Award

Post by Jody » Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:26 am

Wow! I had never heard that before.
UPDATE: Again, what I say next is now being challenged and some or all of it may not be accurate...we are trying to sort it out:

I've seen people posting photos of QV ceremonies where the person making the award was not one of the Queen's representatives in Canada (Gov. Gen. or Lt. Gov.).

The Vents that are on the receiving end of that treatment were never properly "made" QVs.

Any Tom, Dick or Harry can toss a CSA at a Scout. Only the Queen's rep can bestow a QV.

What is it about this organization that makes it so willing to throw away its rich heritage in a mad race to embrace....well, it beats the heck out of me what it thinks it's embracing.
Last edited by Jody on Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Top Rover Award

Post by Sam Wallis » Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:31 am

Perhaps if more people (inside this organization and outside) knew about the QV that might give us some traction in recognition.
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Re: Top Rover Award

Post by Sam Wallis » Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:01 pm

I will agree with a prior post, if there are 800 rovers in canada, and its an 8 year program, we could guess that only 100-200 would be eligable to complete such an award each year. at an optomistic goal of 50% of members recieving this award, your looking at a best case of 100 awards per year.

the general public will never care about an award that has such a small reach, even if we put out the 100 best of their age in any organization. There just isnt enough critical mass. there isnt realy enough in Vents either, but there is at least hope that we can reach a critical mass.

anyone know how many reached QV level last year?
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Re: Top Rover Award

Post by norma » Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:42 pm

Jody wrote:The best manifestation of that lack of understanding is the Adult Recognition Award that is allowed to be worn by CSA recipients.

The QV is not a mere award. It is, for the lack of a better term, a "title". One does not "earn" the "award". One "becomes" a QV. It is bestowed by Royal Warrant. You are entitled to put the initials "QV" after your name in the same way that other titles bestowed by the Queen are recognized.

Put a bar "on the QVA"? Well, there is no QVA and you'd better check with the Queen before raising the rank of her current title holder.

The Adult Recognition Award shows that Scouts Canada either doesn't understand the difference between its own awards or, in its self-defeating race to appear egalitarian, just doesn't care.

I'm no Monarchist but I'd dare say even Johnny Yank would drop his Vulture Scout Award to the floor and stand wide-eyed and drooling over the thought of receiving an actual Title bestowed by The Actual Queen. These things have universal appeal (even to our Republican cousins to the south). If only Scouts Canada had time for a little "grey-haired" leadership, perhaps they could learn a thing or two about their own organization.
I always thought it was weird that you could wear the *same* Adult Recognition Award if you 'earned' something at 14 and 'earned' something at 18.
To me just the fact that you are older makes the 18 yr award 'different' than the 14 yr award. And thus should have a difference recognition as an adult

I do not fully understand, but are the King's Scout and Queen's Scout more equivalent to the Chief Scout's Award? or the Queen's Venturer? The 'old' program did go to 18 (I heard) so if those were the 18 yr award it makes sense, think the 'current' person saw that it used to be 'scout' in the award name so just equated everything :/

Sam Wallis wrote:I will agree with a prior post, if there are 800 rovers in canada, and its an 8 year program, we could guess that only 100-200 would be eligable to complete such an award each year. at an optomistic goal of 50% of members recieving this award, your looking at a best case of 100 awards per year.

the general public will never care about an award that has such a small reach, even if we put out the 100 best of their age in any organization. There just isnt enough critical mass. there isnt realy enough in Vents either, but there is at least hope that we can reach a critical mass.

anyone know how many reached QV level last year?
If you look at the wiki about the Eagle Scout award, only 2% of the membership has EVER earned the Eagle Scout Rank ... and look at its 'fame'
A total of 2,151,024 Scouts had earned Eagle Scout by the end of 2011; out of 83,486,083 Scouts since 1911; this was about two percent of the Boy Scouting membership. In 2011, 51,473 Eagle Scout awards were presented, about 6 percent of the 2011 membership.
As members of Scouts Canada we need to make the awards 'important' and make the youth realize that the awards are 'significant' ... especially as Jody said about the QV ... do any of the holders of the QV realize the significance of their new title?? If so why are't they using their title? even if it were just a handful of youth that hold this title, you would have heard about it in the past, present or future. Why is Scouts Canada not toting their horn with the Public Figures campaign and making a big deal about it being a "title bestowed by Royal Warrant" rather than 'just an award'.

A lot of people (not everyone but quite a few) know that the "Chief Scout's Award" is an "award given by the Chief Scout" rather than saying the youth is a "chief scout". Why isn't this understanding given to the Queen's Venturer and its significance.
It doesn't matter so much that there are only 100 who are able to achieve a Top Rover Award over the number who would qualify for the top awards for younger sections ... having the significance of the award could help increase the standing of scouting.
How many 14-15 quit because its 'not cool'? and how many of those know that if the did do the QV they would have a "title" given by the queen? (yeah it is kinda bribing them to do something, but to how many would the 'uncool' suddenly become 'cool' if they knew that they could get this title?)

People keep saying they don't see these awards on resumes ... how many Scouters are telling the recipients of these awards "hey don't forget, you can add this to your resume now, congrats"?
The way children are being taught to make resumes is rediculous, its basically copy paste from the examples in a book that was created forever ago. (and yes it is children being taught to make resumes as it is the 12/13 that are being told how to make them for the 'take you kid to work day', then some will learn in gr 11/12 if they do co-op ... the rest of the youth are never "taught" they are just told they need one when they go to look for a job after high school or after university)
I know I was told to only include the last 4 years of my life. Only work, education, training taken in the last 4 years is valid. So if I am 18-19 and making my resume and earned the CSA at 13-14 ... well it was more than 4 years ago. So why would it get included? And then at the end of university at 21-22 its even longer ago and the QV earned at 18 would be falling off according to the timeline even though it is a title for life.

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Re: Top Rover Award

Post by Jody » Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:05 pm

are the King's Scout and Queen's Scout more equivalent to the Chief Scout's Award? or the Queen's Venturer?
Norma: If I'm not mistaken, King and Queen Scouts were the equivalent of QVs. When Venturers were created, they moved the Royal Warrant "title" award to the Venturers and created the, again, for lack of a better term, "civilian" (or "civil"?) Chief Scout Award to fill the gap below.

Here are the words on my Certificate, issued March 26, 1976:

"As a Queen's Venturer you have chosen
to love and serve God and your fellow men
and have proven worthy of this trust.

May you continue to gain in strength and
wisdom seeking always to serve your country
with honour to protect the rights of others and
to merit their respect and esteem."


Signed by the Queen's Representative in Canada.

We need to recognize our QVs with the same "respect and esteem" that they have pledged to merit from their fellow countrymen by their service to their country.

"To Serve Your Country with Honour". How old fashioned is that in this Kardashian World?

I don't think the Queen would be pleased to see the lack of "respect and esteem" being given by Scouts Canada to Her QVs.

UPDATE:

Note the language used: "As a Queen's Venturer...". Thus, my argument that QV is something that you "become" (not a mere award that you "hold") .

Recipients of the CSA, on the other hand, are not called "Chief Scouts" but, instead, are to be referred to as a "Pathfinder Scout, holder of the Chief Scout's Award".

Why do we treat these awards equally with respect to the Adult Recognition Award?
Last edited by Jody on Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Top Rover Award

Post by Errol Feldman » Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:45 pm

ayates wrote:
Jody wrote:The QV is not a mere award. It is, for the lack of a better term, a "title". One does not "earn" the "award". One "becomes" a QV. It is bestowed by Royal Warrant. You are entitled to put the initials "QV" after your name in the same way that other titles bestowed by the Queen are recognized.
Wow! I had never heard that before.
NOT TRUE Allan. You receive a Certificate signed by the GG, not a WARRANT stating that peemission
Check out Queen's Regulations and Protocol on Government website.




@edit: typo
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Re: Top Rover Award

Post by Jody » Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:28 pm

Errol: Do I have some of my language wrong or is the entire premise incorrect?
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Re: Top Rover Award

Post by Sam Wallis » Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:45 pm

norma wrote:
Jody wrote:The best manifestation of that lack of understanding is the Adult Recognition Award that is allowed to be worn by CSA recipients.

The QV is not a mere award. It is, for the lack of a better term, a "title". One does not "earn" the "award". One "becomes" a QV. It is bestowed by Royal Warrant. You are entitled to put the initials "QV" after your name in the same way that other titles bestowed by the Queen are recognized.

Put a bar "on the QVA"? Well, there is no QVA and you'd better check with the Queen before raising the rank of her current title holder.

The Adult Recognition Award shows that Scouts Canada either doesn't understand the difference between its own awards or, in its self-defeating race to appear egalitarian, just doesn't care.

I'm no Monarchist but I'd dare say even Johnny Yank would drop his Vulture Scout Award to the floor and stand wide-eyed and drooling over the thought of receiving an actual Title bestowed by The Actual Queen. These things have universal appeal (even to our Republican cousins to the south). If only Scouts Canada had time for a little "grey-haired" leadership, perhaps they could learn a thing or two about their own organization.
I always thought it was weird that you could wear the *same* Adult Recognition Award if you 'earned' something at 14 and 'earned' something at 18.
To me just the fact that you are older makes the 18 yr award 'different' than the 14 yr award. And thus should have a difference recognition as an adult

I do not fully understand, but are the King's Scout and Queen's Scout more equivalent to the Chief Scout's Award? or the Queen's Venturer? The 'old' program did go to 18 (I heard) so if those were the 18 yr award it makes sense, think the 'current' person saw that it used to be 'scout' in the award name so just equated everything :/

Sam Wallis wrote:I will agree with a prior post, if there are 800 rovers in canada, and its an 8 year program, we could guess that only 100-200 would be eligable to complete such an award each year. at an optomistic goal of 50% of members recieving this award, your looking at a best case of 100 awards per year.

the general public will never care about an award that has such a small reach, even if we put out the 100 best of their age in any organization. There just isnt enough critical mass. there isnt realy enough in Vents either, but there is at least hope that we can reach a critical mass.

anyone know how many reached QV level last year?
If you look at the wiki about the Eagle Scout award, only 2% of the membership has EVER earned the Eagle Scout Rank ... and look at its 'fame'
A total of 2,151,024 Scouts had earned Eagle Scout by the end of 2011; out of 83,486,083 Scouts since 1911; this was about two percent of the Boy Scouting membership. In 2011, 51,473 Eagle Scout awards were presented, about 6 percent of the 2011 membership.
As members of Scouts Canada we need to make the awards 'important' and make the youth realize that the awards are 'significant' ... especially as Jody said about the QV ... do any of the holders of the QV realize the significance of their new title?? If so why are't they using their title? even if it were just a handful of youth that hold this title, you would have heard about it in the past, present or future. Why is Scouts Canada not toting their horn with the Public Figures campaign and making a big deal about it being a "title bestowed by Royal Warrant" rather than 'just an award'.

A lot of people (not everyone but quite a few) know that the "Chief Scout's Award" is an "award given by the Chief Scout" rather than saying the youth is a "chief scout". Why isn't this understanding given to the Queen's Venturer and its significance.
It doesn't matter so much that there are only 100 who are able to achieve a Top Rover Award over the number who would qualify for the top awards for younger sections ... having the significance of the award could help increase the standing of scouting.
How many 14-15 quit because its 'not cool'? and how many of those know that if the did do the QV they would have a "title" given by the queen? (yeah it is kinda bribing them to do something, but to how many would the 'uncool' suddenly become 'cool' if they knew that they could get this title?)

People keep saying they don't see these awards on resumes ... how many Scouters are telling the recipients of these awards "hey don't forget, you can add this to your resume now, congrats"?
The way children are being taught to make resumes is rediculous, its basically copy paste from the examples in a book that was created forever ago. (and yes it is children being taught to make resumes as it is the 12/13 that are being told how to make them for the 'take you kid to work day', then some will learn in gr 11/12 if they do co-op ... the rest of the youth are never "taught" they are just told they need one when they go to look for a job after high school or after university)
I know I was told to only include the last 4 years of my life. Only work, education, training taken in the last 4 years is valid. So if I am 18-19 and making my resume and earned the CSA at 13-14 ... well it was more than 4 years ago. So why would it get included? And then at the end of university at 21-22 its even longer ago and the QV earned at 18 would be falling off according to the timeline even though it is a title for life.

to me the fact that 2% of scouts become Eagle scouts is part of the mystique of the award. if most people earn something for showing up for 3-4 years, then franly I dont put that much value on it.

The idea that you should only include 4 years is bogus. I dont have any childhood awards worth mentioning, but I include my colege, and that was 18 years ago.
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Re: Top Rover Award

Post by Doug Reid » Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:56 pm

Personally I am unaware of the description of the Queen's Venturer Award as it is being discussed here. I have followed up the Program Staff and they too confirm that there is no conferring of a Royal Warrant. This may have been something in the past, however, in discussions with the Governor General's Office over the last few years, this is certainly not the case today.

The Queen's Venturer Award replaced the Queen Scout Award when the program was changed in 1968. Because of that change, the Chief Scout's Award was created, providing the Scout Section with a major Award, as the existing Award moved to Venturers. The language around this "Queen's" also changed at this time.

It was Roland Mitchener, in his role as GG, that proposed idea of a Chief Scout's Award from my history, as he recognized the void in the Scout Section with the Award being shuffled to Venturers. Here are the details from the Scout Wiki:

Introduced: 1973 by The Right Honourable Roland Michener, former Governor-General of Canada

Awarded for: Proficiency in the four areas of skill development: citizenship, leadership, personal development, and outdoor skills.

Awarded by: the Governor-General of Canada, in the official capacity as Chief Scout of Canada, as represented by the Lieutenant-Governor-General of each province or territory.


Queen's Venturer Award:

Introduced: 1909, as the King's Scout Award by King Edward VII, "Edward the Peacemaker"

Preceded By: Queen's Scout Award

Awarded by: the Governor-General of Canada, as the monarch's representative in Canada

Awarded for: Displaying the character and ability to be of significant help to other people; and, having thoroughly trained in Scoutcraft, places that training at the disposal of the community for Public Service.

Background: The Queen's Venturer Award is the highest proficiency award for youth members in Scouts Canada.

When the Scout program was divided into Scouts and Venturers in 1968, the highest award, the Queen's Scout Award was renamed to reflect its application to the Venturer section.

The award is presented to Venturers who have acquired competence and skills that will be of considerable use to themselves, their company, and their community. These Venturers will have been recognized by their company, their advisor, and Scouts Canada as being worthy of receiving the Award.

Doug
Doug Reid
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Jody
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Re: Top Rover Award

Post by Jody » Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:20 pm

Personally I am unaware of the description of the Queen's Venturer Award as it is being discussed here. I have followed up the Program Staff and they too confirm that there is no conferring of a Royal Warrant.
Doug: With all due respect [really - please don't take any of this as "attacky"], what you and the "Program Staff" think does not make it so. Equally, what I think most certainly does not make it so either.

Note: I never said that there was a "conferring of a Royal Warrant". I said it was conferred by Royal Warrant (whatever the heck that is or means). Now whether I got the lingo wrong (or the whole thing wrong) or not is another matter.

I can only relay what I was advised in 1976 when I received the award. Further, if you do a little more googling (you have to look hard to get past the Scout Wiki blather) you will find the term "warrant" used and the use of the expression "you become a QV" not just "receive a QV" (all of which exactly mirrors the understanding of the award I was given 36 years ago).

To quote from the Scout Wiki is internet folly. The exact words used there are repeated all around the 'net. The simple historical facts are good but there is a wholesale lack of real knowledge shown on this topic in the wiki.

The version of the explanation of the award that I stated earlier may or may not be accurate. But let's not make "Gee, I never heard of that before." become the arbiter of truth on the matter.

Surely there be some historical record as to the Crown's sanctioning of this award in its earlier iterations.

Does it sound likely that some Scoutmasters in Ottawa in 1909 just invented the award and dressed it up it in Royal garb thinking His Highness wouldn't mind. No. His Highness almost certainly executed some process by which this award in His name came into being and was to be thereafter conferred. We really need to put ourselves into the mindset of a different era - back then these things were actually taken quite seriously (you had to actually ask the Monarch if you could do things in His or Her name -and- let's not forget the Monarch's proactive role in the creation of the movement).

I'm not pretending to be a historian or protocol expert here.....I'm only relaying what I was told before most of the current members of Scouts Canada were ever born. I could be completely and totally wrong. Or not....

P.S.: Roland Michener was the eternal perfect Chief Scout! (Although our current CS is not too shabby....)
Last edited by Jody on Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:40 pm, edited 4 times in total.
B. Jody Lotzkar
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Re: Top Rover Award

Post by ayates » Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:57 pm

Jody wrote: P.S.: Roland Michener was the eternal perfect Chief Scout! (Although our current CS is not too shabby....)
I didn't think we had a chief Scout anymore? I thought the GG is now the patron Scout and nobody can be found to be the chief scout?

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