Cub Car Kits

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BalooTwo
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Cub Car Kits

Post by BalooTwo » Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:40 am

About 3 years ago, the actual cub car blocks of wood were very heavy. With the cub car restricted to 142 grams, some of our cub's cars were finished (wheels, design and paint) over 170 grams. This meant alot of hollowing out the car to get down to race weight. Complained then.

This year, about 1 in 5 cars are the same - the wood block is far too heavy. The leaders didn't pre-weigh to find the heavy ones so the cubs with the most removal could use these. Ok. The price of not being vigilant. However, this year, the axle slots cut into the wood are too narrow. Normally, an adult could push the wheel on easily, and the cubs could easily tap the wheel in straight. This year, the wheels are a disaster as the cubs really needed to pound on the wheels to get them on = broken wheels and cracked wood. But, even the Beaver buggies have the same problem. The leaders had to step in on this one.

We can't be the only group with this problem since all the kits are bought at the Scout shop. A little quality control would be nice - I hope that this is not the new standard.

kaa27th
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Re: Cub Car Kits

Post by kaa27th » Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:42 am

Yup. Had the same problem this year. Some of the blocks were not straight either, and the wheel slots were not at a right angle.
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Angus Bickerton
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Re: Cub Car Kits

Post by Angus Bickerton » Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:58 am

On some of our cars, we are cutting off the whole bottom (a lower car with the weight distributed around each of the axles instead of in between the axles is almost always faster), depending on what the youth wants to do. Pre-weighing is pretty important, unless you are discarding a lot of the wood.
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ayates
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Re: Cub Car Kits

Post by ayates » Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:44 am

Angus Bickerton wrote:a lower car with the weight distributed around each of the axles instead of in between the axles is almost always faster
The engineer in me is curious about the reasoning behind this statement. What makes the car go is the conversion of potential energy into kinetic energy. This implies that the more weight higher up the track at the start will result in a faster car (the weight has a further distance to fall as the car is all on the same level at the end). What slows the car down is rolling friction between the wheels and the track, rolling friction between the wheels and the axles, and air resistance. I can't see how distributing the weight differently will with respect to the axles will affect the friction (assuming the shape remains constant). But I am always interested in learning!


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Angus Bickerton
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Re: Cub Car Kits

Post by Angus Bickerton » Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:48 am

I don't know either, but I have seen it work. The top three runners at our Area races last year all had this kind of design. On thinking about it, it was likely the incredibly low profile of the car that required that the bottom of the block be cut off, as too much wood would be lost to make the car viable, and therefore the weight had to be distributed at the axles where there was room to receive it.
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Sam Wallis
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Re: Cub Car Kits

Post by Sam Wallis » Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:24 am

if you cut off the bottom of the block would the car then not drag on the track? our track you might have 1/8th of an inch clearance with the standard block of wood and the wheels put on.

angus, the best cars I have seen have the weight behind the rear wheels. I wonder what actual speed we get and the affects aerodynamics have. I always worked for some aero gain, but I dont know how effective that is. I do know that the rolling resistance makes a HUGE difference.
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RakelaK
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Re: Cub Car Kits

Post by RakelaK » Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:38 pm

At our Area Rally on the weekend we had one Pack place 11 Cubs in the top 12. And their main trick (of several) and that they make sure all of the Cubs get the "long end" of the block pointed backward... and they get all the weight of the car above or behind the back axle. Like I said... they do a few other 'tricks' with the Cubs and their cars (the common ones that all Packs do) ... but the one thing they emphasize and check on carefully.... is weighting the back end of the car. I have seen cars go faster in years past that did not follow that rule. BUT... this year.... in a Rally with the top 2/3s coming in from every Cub Pack in the city (the top 2/3rds from each Pack's individual run-off rally are allowed to attend the Area Rally).... and this one Cub Pack places 13 in the top 24.... and then 11 in the top 12. It says something for their little handbook of tips and tricks.

bcbagheera
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Re: Cub Car Kits

Post by bcbagheera » Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:44 pm

Only 2/3 of the cubs in the Area attend the Area Kub Kar Rally?? Why not all, the more the merrier. Our Area (and before that, District) always allowed entry from all cubs.

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Re: Cub Car Kits

Post by 2HC-OldChil » Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:00 pm

Sam Wallis wrote:I always worked for some aero gain, but I dont know how effective that is. I do know that the rolling resistance makes a HUGE difference.
One year the "winner" in the Pack won by a long shot. I weighted it the night of the race with markers and such using masking tape (we were at Camp). Once declared the winner, we re-ran the races and I stripped the added weight making the winner underweight. Again it won handily. Therefore you can assume that the friction was minimized and aero has less effect.

To test the aero effect you can weight a kar in the back end - start with the block as is. Race, then alter the shape (make more like rt angle triangle), adjust the weight and retest. We add buckshot into a drilled hole in the rear panel and back 1/3 of the bottom so I concur about back weighting. We seal the hole(s) with a hot glue gun.

One idea for many on getting the Pack to build the "correct" style is to lead the Parents with a how-to build sheet(s) and give them URLs of pictures. If you guide them and give the Parent the reason, let the Parent take over as I see the event is a Parent bonding event.

BalooTwo
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Re: Cub Car Kits

Post by BalooTwo » Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:23 am

all very interesting. i was told that no matter what you do, the wheel alignment is the key. However, i would seem that rules on cub cars are different for the different areas. we can only put additional weight in-between the axles, no where else, and the cub is supposed to design, build, paint and race the car. to stop parents and leaders living success through their cubs, both rules are strictly enforced.

ayates
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Re: Cub Car Kits

Post by ayates » Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:09 pm

BalooTwo wrote:we can only put additional weight in-between the axles, no where else
I find all these special rules too much for the Cubs. All that is really needed is a maximum width and weight. If some parent installs delrin bearings it will be pretty obvious.
2HC-OldChil wrote:I see the event is a Parent bonding event
Agree completely.
RakelaK wrote:the top 2/3rds from each Pack's individual run-off rally are allowed to attend the Area Rally
I have never been keen on all these elimination tournaments. To me the objective was to get lots of Cubs building kars (with their fathers), and then have them all out to have a really good time. Having winners is important, but the overall event can be even more important to the Cubs if it is done right.

A quick plug for my event organisation tips, our speed tips, and a collection of design patterns.


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Re: Cub Car Kits

Post by 2HC-OldChil » Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:51 pm

BalooTwo wrote:... and the cub is supposed to design, build, paint and race the car. to stop parents and leaders living success through their cubs, both rules are strictly enforced.
Exactly correct. Locally, we lowered the Design bar by specifying Best Design by a CUB and instructed the judges (usually Beaver parents) specifically to include the crude to show "effort" as single Moms usually do not have the skills that a Dad might. To solve the Dad design/built, we are now running Adult Kars races so the Dads can play and race against the Leaders. Very successful.

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RakelaK
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Re: Cub Car Kits

Post by RakelaK » Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:47 pm

bcbagheera wrote:Only 2/3 of the cubs in the Area attend the Area Kub Kar Rally?? Why not all, the more the merrier. Our Area (and before that, District) always allowed entry from all cubs.
Simple... way too many Cubs. Top 2/3s go to Area. The Packs on the nearby military base exempt themselves... They have as many Cubs in their Packs as all the other Packs in the Area combined... so they hold a Rally unto themselves. The Top 12 from the Area Rally meet up with the Top 12 from the Base Rally in a showdown Rally. Regardless of the outcome from that... the Top 8 from both the Area Rally and the Base Rally go to the Provincials.

And for those kids in the bottom 1/3 from the individual Pack Rally races... they get their own Rally as well... the big Mall Rally is for them. Trophies are just as big... just as many medals and ribbons... but the winner from that... is just that... and doesn't advance to any other Rally beyond the Mall. The Cubs from the Base don't go to that one... they hold their own concession Rally to give Cubs a second chance at some gold.

All the "big" Rally races are $0 cost for admission. The Cub just has to compete to find out which ones they attend next. And none seem too wounded by losing a chance at the Area Rally. The Mall Rally has awards that are the same as the Area Rally awards... and, because it is restricted to Cubs who might have had a good car... but just had a bad night in their pack runoff... it gives them a chance at redemption.

The path to the current format has been pretty organic. It grew over the years into what it is now based on complaints and issues that always arose during the days of the 'all-ins.' All the kids, leaders and parents seem to prefer it to those massive all-day Kub Kar competitions that took such a long time to get through... + they usually had the royal pain of food concession stands... parking nightmares, etc... and the absolute worst element .. the Cubs had to pay an entry fee just to go. ugh! A Kub Kar Rally should always be free regardless of what competition level it is run... even at the Provincials.

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Re: Cub Car Kits

Post by ayates » Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:58 am

RakelaK wrote:Simple... way too many Cubs. Top 2/3s go to Area. The Packs on the nearby military base exempt themselves... They have as many Cubs in their Packs as all the other Packs in the Area combined... so they hold a Rally unto themselves.
Out of curiosity, how many Cubs are we talking here?
RakelaK wrote: even at the Provincials
What province are you? There is no such thing in Ontario.

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Re: Cub Car Kits

Post by norma » Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:11 pm

We have a similar problem with the Beaver Buggies

The thickness of the Beaver v the width of the groove do not match. Some of them you can easily get the Beaver into the groove, others you have to sand a significant amount of material off the end of the Beaver in order for it to fit.

We have never been able to simply push the wheels in though, have always had to use a hammer to get them in, but had 2 that the groove for the axle split, luckily we had a couple extra buggies not made up from years past, otherwise we would have 2 unhappy Beavers who would not have been able to 'race' their buggies

With the Beaver woggles that keep breaking, we were told to take them back to the shop so they knew of the issue. But how do you return a decorated Buggy that the Beaver wants to take home?

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