Frustrating

Ideas, thoughts, approaches and material to equip our adult volunteers to deliver the youth programs.
southpaw_1979
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Re: Frustrating

Post by southpaw_1979 » Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:52 am

ayates wrote:Simple solution, don't use SC owned facilities :) There must be other no/lower cost options. I remember as a kid doing Cub/Scout winter camps at a Kiwanis facility somewhere just outside Toronto.
This is part of the problem. When we don't use facilities, two things have to happen. The cost of operation needs to be spread out over a smaller number of users. Subsequently less people use the facility possibly because of cost.

When usage is reduced, the facility may end up being considered underutilized and potetially sold. When this happens everyone starts to whine and complain....Oh my where are we to go? That answer is easy, the same place you must have been going while the facility was under utilized.
The solution is to use the facilities, sure some of them may be slightly over priced at least in our minds. Our group this year has committed ourselves to using Scout Camps whenever possible instead of going to provincial parks or conservation areas camping. The scout camps can nearly always accomodate the activities we have planned and for outdoor usage and usually appropriately priced. It's only the buildings that are sometimes a bit pricey.

ayates
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Re: Frustrating

Post by ayates » Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:31 pm

Sorry, I should have been more specific. Don't use the "overpriced" Scouts Canada facilities. I much prefer Scout owned/operated camps as their rules of use are much more in tune with our desires, and there is often a lot more flexibility than commercial or government operations. And I agree with the statement of "use it or loose it".

I find in general that area run Scout camps are very economical to use, often charging less than I think the place is worth. For example, our area camp charges groups outside our area $35 for a campsite for a weekend; unlimited number of people. While our council camp charges $6.50/person/night. Take say a Cub pack of 24 kids and 6 leaders at camp for a weekend, that would be a total of $390! An order of magnitude more expensive.

It is the council run camps that tend to be expensive, and I know the ones referred to in Toronto, as they have large expensive buildings to maintain, professional staff to care for everything, etc. While the area camp might be a few fire pits in the woods. Personally think the kids get far more out of the wilderness style camps than they do out of heated cabins and high ropes courses.

Unfortunately, I think the Scouts Canada plan is to construct more of these mega camps with expensive facilities. There is the belief that is all kids one to do. Because if you do a survey and ask the kids "Do you want a high ropes course and flush toilets", you will get the answer you expect.


Allan.

Sam Wallis
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Re: Frustrating

Post by Sam Wallis » Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:38 pm

interesting, here I dont know of any area opperated camps, but groups do opperate them. the one I can think of has flush toilets, indoor dining and kitchen, indoor bunks for about half what the same council run facilities, that do have an archery range, do have a pool (unheated) but the flush toilets are a long hike from some sites and are shared.

now we think the group run camp is cheap at 350.
Truth is a perception, and a individual perception is their truth

ayates
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Re: Frustrating

Post by ayates » Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:44 pm

But Sam, you are the one who takes laptops and sound systems to camps :) I'm kind of the opposite extreme.

Angus Bickerton
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Re: Frustrating

Post by Angus Bickerton » Fri Sep 14, 2012 2:28 pm

Camp Traill, an SC owned property (ah, but subject to a nice Trust condition that I researched prior to becoming a Scouter that prevents its sale. Has to go back to the original owner's family if SC wants to sell it), is a beautiful wilderness type camp in Eastern Ontario on Charleston Lake. Not used a lot by the rest of the Council, my group is there about 10 times a year. $5.00 per person for usage for indefinite periods (usually a weekend). Not far from you, Allan. Your group's scouts would probably like it a lot.
Angus Bickerton
Troop Scouter
Brockville Troop
1st Brockville Group Committee
1st Gilwell 2011 (Colony) 2013 (Pack)

There is no armour made that can withstand the truth - Karsa Orlong

ayates
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Re: Frustrating

Post by ayates » Fri Sep 14, 2012 2:46 pm

We've used Traill a couple of times in the past, along with Dundar and Oskenonton. It was pretty nice, but I would still say I prefer Whispering Pines for the more rustic feel. Though it is nice for kids to get a change once in a while. Also we get to use Whispering Pines for no charge (courtesy of area fundraising). And even at $5/personfor a weekend, for my above example of 30 people, that is $150/weekend. You can use Whispering Pines for $35. Bow Traill has cabins, but I am never interested in those. Traill does have an absolutely cool orienteering course setup.

http://scoutdocs.ca/Camps/Camps.php?camp=traill


Allan.

Sam Wallis
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Re: Frustrating

Post by Sam Wallis » Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:16 pm

ayates wrote:But Sam, you are the one who takes laptops and sound systems to camps :) I'm kind of the opposite extreme.

it was only once. although, if we keep with the idea of the tawney star, doing that every three years isnt a bad idea.
Truth is a perception, and a individual perception is their truth

Roxybeaver1
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Re: Frustrating

Post by Roxybeaver1 » Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:23 pm

It IS frustrating! That Ottawa one planned for the fall that someone mentioned was cancelled due to low numbers and I had already paid. I was reimbursed and told there would be another one in the winter, for sure, for sure. Instead, it is a combo Colony, Pack, Troop one and in May and June, for two full weekends. I signed up and Group will pay for it. May is already incredibly busy but I wanted to get this done - I need the outdoor skills, I need the challenge.

I also think they should offer it more often, and in combination with other sections to make it more economical. It is not offered that often from what I can see (at least at the Colony level). I also get the feeling, at least for my group, that it is not promoted enough as something to do. It is mentioned in passing, along the lines of, "Hey..here is some training, sign up if you feel like, you know..." instead of "Hey - You are a leader. Take advantage of this training that is here for you and paid for you! Get more training. Here are the dates. Sign up!"

Angus Bickerton
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Re: Frustrating

Post by Angus Bickerton » Wed Apr 03, 2013 8:09 am

RoxyBeaver1, I am signed up for the same one for Pack. We have three cub leaders going, and our Colony Section Leader, so 4 from our group. Also, it is near to us (just north of Kingston). Nice to be able to carpool. I agree, WB II should be offered more, and pushed by ACs and GCs for their scouters. It just gives you so much more in your Scouter's toolbox. The best part is the sharing of ideas with other Scouters, both instructors and participants. That alone is worth the price of admission.
Angus Bickerton
Troop Scouter
Brockville Troop
1st Brockville Group Committee
1st Gilwell 2011 (Colony) 2013 (Pack)

There is no armour made that can withstand the truth - Karsa Orlong

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