Recognizing outstanding youth

Ideas, approaches, material, etc. to develop our senior youth into leaders of the movement.
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Errol Feldman
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Re: Recognizing outstanding youth

Post by Errol Feldman » Fri May 14, 2010 1:18 pm

ayates wrote:
If you're seeing too many lifers giving awards to lifers then change that. Nominate someone for an award.
I'll second that. We have had "discussions" in our group about people receiving awards who shouldn't have, and people who deserve something don't get anything. My response is that while we can complain about the people who shouldn't have received an award, we probably have only ourselves to blame if somebody didn't receive an award. We didn't make the effort to nominate them...
Allan.
If the complainers would just stop complaining about those they "feel" don't deserve the Award would only get off their a**** and recommend those that they think should get Awards, then the world would be a much happier place.

Whether or not you feel that someone does (not) deserve the Award; somebody else did and took the trouble to write them up, and the National/Council Award Committee agreed, otherwise the Award would not have been given. SO DO SOMETHING about your feelings, nominate somebody, take the trouble to write them up. I even got a Silver Wolf for somebody most deserving; nobody else thought about it...but he received it...a "simple" Scouter, not a Chief commissioner, Commissioner, etc. JUST A SCOUTER, but that's what we are supposed to be doing...I think :?:
Errol Feldman
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scouterjohn
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Re: Recognizing outstanding youth

Post by scouterjohn » Fri May 14, 2010 3:17 pm

The Youth Forum for the Greater Toronto Council created an award, which sounds like it would suit your purposes quite well.

http://www.gtc.scouts.ca/gtc_resource.asp?resource=37

The award comes in bronze, silver and gold (level decided by the Youth Forum) and I think it is only a certificate. It is presented at the annual Youth Awards ceremony along with the QS, QV and MoMaple awards.

Why not suggest to your Council Youth Forum that they come up with something similar? If a couple of Councils adopt similar schemes, then maybe we can get Dylan to suggest it be a National scheme!

John

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Re: Recognizing outstanding youth

Post by scoutleader101 » Fri May 14, 2010 10:31 pm

John,

That's a great idea. Do you know if youth can use their badge program service hours towards this award too? For example, can the 30 hours of leadership to others for the CSA count towards the 40 hours for this? The one thing I don't like about this is that it requires tracking a person's time. Youth might track their own time but to what purpose? To nominate themselves? I might know that a youth is involved in certain projects and might have a general idea of their effort but how do I know the details of exact dates and times? This award seems to be forward looking...ie, one would track the time and effort in order to earn the award rather than a youth just doing great things and having a person nominate them afterwards. Does that make sense?

Garth

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Re: Recognizing outstanding youth

Post by ayates » Sat May 15, 2010 4:14 pm

Talking with our council awards person, he says there is a council youth award that would be appropriate for this situation. See attached document.


Allan.
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Voyageur Council Youth Award Nomination Form - December 2004.doc
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Re: Recognizing outstanding youth

Post by scouterjohn » Sun May 16, 2010 9:51 pm

Tracking volunteer hours is somewhat a matter of routine here in Ontario, as all students must have 40 hours of community service to graduate from grade 12. This is fairly easily accomplished in almost any decent Scout/Venturer program. Each school and/or school board seems to have invented their own documentation requirements so keeping our own records seems easiest

If the leaders are keeping records then spotting the outstanding kids is pretty easy.

John

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Re: Recognizing outstanding youth

Post by ayates » Mon May 17, 2010 7:46 am

I track the community service hours that my Ventures complete. While expect them to track their own (not that they do...) I want the records for my own edification and to ensure the high school sheets I sign off are correct.


Allan.
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CommService.png
CommService.png (10.03 KiB) Viewed 9659 times

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Re: Recognizing outstanding youth

Post by BalooTwo » Mon May 17, 2010 3:28 pm

I am neither a commissioner, executive or Baden Powell himself. I am an ordinary member expressing my opinion. The defensive/agressive nature of responses is somewhat dis-heartening with this forum. Is any of this getting back upstairs? Or is it part of information blocking. If there are complainers, then there is a problem, and things have been done about it to no avail. Showing us what others are doing just appears as CYA. Having a youth dedicate 4 or 5 years to a Scouting program outside his group deserves recognition. Period. What is proposed to be changed. Is the excutive listening or just wringing their hands with maybes, sort ofs. possibly do thats. Recognition is given too freely for lifers yet, not enough for the youth. What will change. Turning the question back onto us is not the answer. Getting off my a** to do something has done little but get me nominated for something. So, what is to be done?

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Re: Recognizing outstanding youth

Post by scoutleader101 » Mon May 17, 2010 10:44 pm

Allan/John,

Thanks for the explanation. I didn't know that Ontario had that requirement. Now that you've explained it, it does appear to be routine. However, does that mean that most youth earn the Voyageur Council Youth award? It seems a main part of it is recording the service the youth performs although the form does ask for exceptional service performed. Would you be able to describe just what is expected for a youth to get this award. From the outside looking in, and I don't mean to minimize the award, it seems to me that this award would be earned fairly routinely by any youth involved in a reasonably active scout or venturer program. Hence my question about whether service time for this award can be counted towards the CSA and/or QVA or vice versa. If so, it would appear that this is simply another 'program' award - like the D of E. By that I mean an award that can be earned simply by following a typical program. Please clarify if possible as perhaps I'm missing something.

If national doesn't, at a minimum, lower the age restriction for the Cert. of Com. then I'm going to work with my AYC's and see if they think our council should create an award similar to yours. My first impression though would be that any outstanding service performed towards this proposed new award be mutually exclusive from any other program awards. I am happy with the Medal of the Maple but feel that it isn't enough. I would equate it with the adult Medal for Good Service or perhaps the Medal of Merit (I haven't decided yet!) and feel that additional awards are required for lesser (and greater!) outstandingness! Also, what happens if a youth performs additional outstanding service after earning the Medal of the Maple? Can they get a second one? One of my former scouts, at just 13 years old, was among the first in my council to earn an MM award. What do I do if, over the next half decade, she performs further outstanding service?

Garth

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Re: Recognizing outstanding youth

Post by scouterjohn » Tue May 18, 2010 10:38 pm

In our Troop and Company we do a number of community service things. We clean up a local park Spring and Fall; we participate in the delivery of 40,000 Christmas parcels for the Toronto Star Santa Claus Fund; we plant trees in one river valley or another each Spring; we collect more food for the Area Hike for Hunger food drive than the rest of the Area combined. All of these things count for High School credit; none of these things counts towards an Award of Excellence.

To prompt me to recommend a youth for this award would require volunteer effort above and beyond these regular activities. For example, the Scout who was a Kim for six months and then stayed on as a Cub SIT for three years, passing up Troop camps to help at Cuborees and Kub Kar events or the youth who is a member of the Area Youth Forum and takes a leading role in organizing an Area event.

But that’s me. Like the adult awards, I see kids getting the award that make me wonder how and why. And I see unrewarded kids who don’t even know the awards exist.

John

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Re: Recognizing outstanding youth

Post by scoutleader101 » Fri Jun 04, 2010 11:11 am

More than ever I see the need for outstanding service awards opened up to youth. My council is about to present a Medal for Good Service to a 16 year old despite BP&P stating that the eligibility for this award is for adult volunteers. The youth already has a Medal of the Maple (in fact I nominated him for it!). I don't dispute that the youth deserves the recognition. He's a great young man who does a lot. I don't like the fact that the award is being given as an exception to the current rule though. I would like to see the rule changed so that the awards are open to youth.

Garth

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Re: Recognizing outstanding youth

Post by Errol Feldman » Fri Jun 04, 2010 12:36 pm

scoutleader101 wrote:More than ever I see the need for outstanding service awards opened up to youth. My council is about to present a Medal for Good Service to a 16 year old despite BP&P stating that the eligibility for this award is for adult volunteers. The youth already has a Medal of the Maple (in fact I nominated him for it!). I don't dispute that the youth deserves the recognition. He's a great young man who does a lot. I don't like the fact that the award is being given as an exception to the current rule though. I would like to see the rule changed so that the awards are open to youth.
Garth
Sorry Garth, but I have to disagree with you for two reasons:
1)These awards are NOT supposed to be used for Youth, and in MNSHPO reduces their value to Adult volunteers;
2) EVEN if they were supposed to be Awarded to Youth, you are starting too high; a Letter of Commendation would be more appropriate, after all he already has the Maple. how much can he possibly have done if he is only 16 years old.

BUT I DO see the problem; perhaps something for Dylan and his Committee to work on...
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scoutleader101
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Re: Recognizing outstanding youth

Post by scoutleader101 » Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:20 pm

I can't speak to starting to high as that was the decision of the H&A committee. In this case the only thing I disagree with is that an exception was made. I do tend to agree that a C of C would have been appropriate, especially since BP&P allows those for 16 year olds.

As to devaluing the award to adults I must disagree with you! Why can't youth perform outstanding service JUST LIKE adults can/do? I'll go back to a previous comment I made in an earlier post...awards for acts of gallantry or meritorious conduct can be bestowed to ANY member of scouting. If a youth received a Bronze Cross would that devalue the meaning of it to an adult who also earned one? Of course not! So then why do we restrict the honouring of a youth who performs outstanding service?

Besides...as mentioned above, BP&P already allows an a outstanding service award (albeit the lowest level) to be given to a youth so why not higher levels and lower ages?

Each council has an H&A committe to vet these awards so I would presume that only those who are earning them would get them.

Garth

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Re: Recognizing outstanding youth

Post by Errol Feldman » Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:33 am

scoutleader101 wrote:I can't speak to starting to high as that was the decision of the H&A committee. In this case the only thing I disagree with is that an exception was made. I do tend to agree that a C of C would have been appropriate, especially since BP&P allows those for 16 year olds.

I have trouble imagining that a 16 year old, after achieving the Maple, could have done enough more to warrant the GSM

As to devaluing the award to adults I must disagree with you! Why can't youth perform outstanding service JUST LIKE adults can/do? I'll go back to a previous comment I made in an earlier post...awards for acts of gallantry or meritorious conduct can be bestowed to ANY member of scouting. If a youth received a Bronze Cross would that devalue the meaning of it to an adult who also earned one? Of course not! So then why do we restrict the honoring of a youth who performs outstanding service?

Your are comparing apples and oranges here Garth. but I imagine that where a youth might receive the Gold Cross, an adult might only receive the Silver Cross. After considering all the elements in the Meritorious Conduct, being a Youth or an Adult may just effect the level of the conduct. A Cub, in my humble opinion, would probably get a higher level award than an Adult, for the same action.

Besides...as mentioned above, BP&P already allows an a outstanding service award (albeit the lowest level) to be given to a youth so why not higher levels and lower ages?

Personally I do not believe that age should be a factor, only whether or not the recipient is a volunteer or not.

Each council has an H&A committee to vet these awards so I would presume that only those who are earning them would get them.

I would imagine that an awful lot depends on WHO makes the recommendation, and what LEVEL honour is requested

Garth
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Re: Recognizing outstanding youth

Post by scoutleader101 » Sat Jun 05, 2010 9:39 am

I guess it comes down to three questions:

1) Can a youth perform outstanding service?
The answer to this can only be yes. Anybody who answers no would have to give their head a shake because many of our youth are doing great things for scouting.

2) Will all outstanding service performed be at the same level (ie. effort, impact, etc)?
Clearly the answer can only be no. Just like adults some youth will perform a low amount of outstanding service while some will perform a great amount of outstanding service.

3) Can only youth 16 and older perform outstanding service?
Again, the answer is clearly no. If you answer yes...huh?

Based on the only viable answers that can be given for these three questions we MUST open all outstanding service awards to all members of scouting.

And going back to your comment about meritorious awards for youth...I agree that a cub might get a higher level of award than a scout or adult for the same action. That just emphasizes my point that all outstanding service awards must be available to all members. Why...because if a cub and a venturer did the same things over a period of, say, two years, (vounteered at rallies, area camps, assisted with a lower section, etc.) then by your own logic that cub might deserve a higher award than the venturer and our system currently doesn't permit that.

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Re: Recognizing outstanding youth

Post by Errol Feldman » Sun Jun 06, 2010 8:46 am

scoutleader101 wrote:I guess it comes down to three questions:
1) Can a youth perform outstanding service?
The answer to this can only be yes. Anybody who answers no would have to give their head a shake because many of our youth are doing great things for scouting.
Of course the answer is YES, but at the moment they have the Order of the Maple for that, and it is available to ALL Youth if you read the requirements. SO let's start here first.

2) Will all outstanding service performed be at the same level (ie. effort, impact, etc)?
Clearly the answer can only be no. Just like adults some youth will perform a low amount of outstanding service while some will perform a great amount of outstanding service.

Then, in my opinion, if they do NOT qualify for the Maple, they do not qualify for any other award for service. Extraordinary service is one of the requirements for the Maple:
All youth that display outstanding service and commitment to the Scouting Movement are
eligible for the Medal of the Maple. In terms of the award criteria, “outstanding” is defined as
service and commitment that excels and exceeds the performance of the ordinary duties and
expectations of a youth within their sections, groups, local councils or other pertinent Scouting
associations and bodies. Aside from this broad definition, youth must meet the specified criteria
below...It is anticipated that most recipients will be registered as a Scout, Venturer or Rover however Beavers and Cubs that display exceptional skills and thoroughly reflect the Scouting spirit will also be eligible.


3) Can only youth 16 and older perform outstanding service?
Again, the answer is clearly no. If you answer yes...huh?

And again the Maple is the recognition. AND then you may want to consider WHY the NYN did not address this subject; why did the NYN not consider the fact that Youth make great contributions to Scouting.

Based on the only viable answers that can be given for these three questions we MUST open all outstanding service awards to all members of scouting.

How far would you go Garth, Silver Wolf? Of course it used to be awarded to King's Scouts of two years standing and who had performed exceptional services to Scouting. When and why it was stopped, I do not know. Needless to add, I strongly disagree; there MUST be a difference between Youth and Adult recognition systems.

And going back to your comment about meritorious awards for youth...I agree that a cub might get a higher level of award than a scout or adult for the same action. That just emphasizes my point that all outstanding service awards must be available to all members. Why...because if a cub and a venturer did the same things over a period of, say, two years, (vounteered at rallies, area camps, assisted with a lower section, etc.) then by your own logic that cub might deserve a higher award than the venturer and our system currently doesn't permit that.
Where is that written; I just mentioned the Maple for which ALL Youth is eligible?
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Re: Recognizing outstanding youth

Post by Dylan Reinhart » Sat Jun 19, 2010 8:18 pm

Hello all,

Again my apologies for being absent from these discussions.

Some of the discussions I would like to address were some time ago.

First, in connection to Greater Toronto Council and Voyageur Council's Youth awards. They are not the only councils that have additional youth awards specifically created and managed at the council level. I can say for sure that Cascadia Council in British Columbia also has a youth award.

Second, I would like to clarify that in my earlier post I was not suggesting that the Chief Scout Award or Queens Venturer Award should be a prerequisite for awarding the Medal of the Maple. There is more to these awards that service and there are certainly many youth across the country who perform outstanding service to our movement despite having never earned these awards.

Third, It is clear to me that there a couple concerns and questions coming out of this discussion that the National Youth Network should (and will) spend some time working on in conjunction with the Volunteer Services team. 1) Is the Medal of the Maple enough recognition for the service the youth across this country are providing; and 2) Where do youth with outstanding service fit into the Volunteer Recognition program and where should they fit in? I have taken note of both of these questions.

Lastly, I would like to thank you for the clear support and faith everyone in this discussion obviously has for youth members serving this organization. Youth across the country are making a clear contribution to our organization and it is key that we learn how to recognize them for these contributions. Should you have any further questions. I will continue to follow this discussion and take note of your ideas and suggestions and share them with the National Youth Network.

Thanks again!
Dylan Reinhart
National Youth Commissioner
Chair - National Youth Network

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E: dreinhart@scouts.ca

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Re: Recognizing outstanding youth

Post by Errol Feldman » Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:18 am

First of all Dylan, let me make it perfectly clear that I AM IN FAVOUR of special awards to youth (at all levels, starting with Cubs) who give exemplary service. I jst feel that there should be a completelt different set for Youth than for Adults UNLESS that Youth is serving as a Volunteer as defined in BPP. Perhaps the Medal of the Maple could be the equivalent of a Silver Acorn, and a simple series of othe Awards be instituted for the Youth. After all, let's be realistic, how many should be necessary as Youth grow up and become Adults and so, eventually, eligible for the Adult Awards.
I haven't thought is all out yhet, but these are just some being thoughts ;) :idea: ;)
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Re: Recognizing outstanding youth

Post by scoutleader101 » Sun Jun 20, 2010 9:48 am

That's not what I got from your comments Errol so I'm glad you clarified. I have no objection to opening up existing awards to youth and just changing the eligibility definitions in BP&P. After all, the existing awards already exist so why re-invent the wheel. However, I would support a series of separate youth awards as well.

I should also update this series of posts on our H&A ceremony held yesterday. It turns out the that the youth I mentioned previously who was going to receive an adult only award, did not. The youth's name was on the list of recipients but at some point a decision was made not to present the level of award he was originally listed for. Instead, he received a C of C which BP&P allows for ages 16 and up. I have no idea if my comments to our H&A guy did anything but I'm glad this decision was made. Actually, two youth received a C of C yesterday.

Garth

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Re: Recognizing outstanding youth

Post by Liam Morland » Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:03 pm

I would like to explain more of why the Queen's Venturer Award or Gold Duke of Ed. should be a prerequisite to the Medal of the Maple. The Scout Movement is an educational movement and the role of youth members in the movement is to benefit from that education. This education takes many forms, including service, outdoor adventure, skill development, etc. Fully benefiting from Scouting requires active participation in a balanced program, a program that makes full use of the seven elements of the Scout Method. A program that is only outdoor activities, only service, or only skill development would not be a good Scouting program, no matter how adventurous the outdoor activities, how helpful the service, or how intense the skill development.

Our badge/awards program exists to encourage people to participate in a balanced program. Advancing by badge level requires doing things in a variety of areas, thereby encouraging young people to participate in all aspects of the program. You can't earn any senior award just by going on really adventurous hikes or by learning how to tie 200 knots. Why should service be any different?

It may appear on the face of it that it's great for a Venturer or Rover to spend almost all their Scouting time being a pack Scouter or on council committees. But if they do this to the exclusion of full participation in their program section, they are missing out on their own balanced program.

As it stands, the Medal of the Maple can reward people for not fully participating in a balanced Scouting program. Worse, people who do participate and earn the QVA are now seen as having a second-rate accomplishment next to the greater prestige accorded to Medal of the Maple recipients. This is wrong. If the Medal of the Maple is truly to be for our best youth, it must be for those who dug into their section program, earned the QVA, then went on to do more.
Liam Morland, Scoutmaster
21st Waterloo Scout Troop
CSA 1990, QVA 1994, WB2-T 1995

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Re: Recognizing outstanding youth

Post by Robert D White » Sun Jun 20, 2010 3:48 pm

Liam,

I disagree that a QVA or Gold Duke of Edinburgh Award should be a prerequisite to the Medal of Maple. As much as we Scouters may try to move our youth towards those awards, there are some who won't attain them for whatever reason. However, if a youth happens to take part in activity that satisfies the requirements of the M of M, no matter what other Scouting awards they have or haven't achieved, they should be awarded the M of M.
Robert White
Group Commissioner, 1st Guelph Firefighter Venturers/1st Guelph Rovers
Chaplain, Wellington Area
I'm an ISTJ

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