Scouting Now: Leadership

It was suggested we look at a topic at a time, so here are my thoughts on Scouting Now's comments on leadership:

1) Online training could certainly be used for Module 1 topics such as Risk Management; Mission, Principles and Strategic Direction; and Structure. However the rest of the Part I is best learned in a cohort setting. As both a participant and a trainer (Colony level) and as someone privileged to take the new TD1 program, learning the Section specific material is best learned through interaction with others. Sure, you can watch an Beaver opening or a Grand Howl on a video, but there's nothing better than making mistakes with a bunch of new learners together. The education adage about learning by doing is still valid. What needs to happen is making training available in a number of different time frames and formats to make it easier for new leaders to access the training. In the Central Escarpment Council, the ideal is to have the dates of all Part I training programs posted in the website so that new leaders can find a time that works best for them.

2) New leader welcome package: I wish I had this when I was starting out.

3) Under 35 target: a couple of problems with this. 1) The loss of experience. As my son (a Venturer) said, that would mean the loss of two of his most influential Scouters - who have taught him not only many Scouting lessons, but many life-lessons which were the by-product of his Scouting experience. 2) The loss of institutional memory. I agree, we no longer need the Scouter who says, "back when the Troop had 60 boys we were able to..." However, we do need Scouters who's memories at both the individual Section and/or Group are valid and necessary. They can explain why thing are done certain ways, what the rationale was behind the decision and how we can move forward. We also need Leaders with institutional memory at the Area, National and Council levels so that Scouting traditions can be remembered, but revised as needed. We need the memory of tradition without the traditionalism. This will be lost by the discrimination of eliminating anyone older than 35.

In reference to the under 35 comments for leaders: To start, and I may be incorrect, but I believe the mandatory retirement at 35 for some countries is actually the retirement of leaders who are in direct contact with youth. This puts younger people in front of the youth. This does not remove older members from the management, planning, and execution of programs, camps, etc.

I applaud action item 4.2 which puts measurable objectives on 'including' younger people in all levels of the organization. As a new AC, I look around our area meeting of 15 regular participants and I have three DAC's or GC's (including myself) under 50 with no one under 42. The average age is over 60. We need youth (younger members) who have the energy and imagination to develop fun programs to retain our members.

The action item does not suggest that we are going to get rid of all of my generation, or older. It sets goals on finding younger people with whom the youth can identify to help run the exciting programs they deserve. Energetic DACs, GCs, etc will bring energy back to our groups. Younger people become the succession plan for our experienced adults. The experienced adults can move into roles to support and provide knowledge, skills and training to our younger members. The idea also encourages us to clear some of the dead wood and create space for our senior youth to graduate into.

And, a growing movement should create lots of room to bring in the younger members.

There are several barriers to entry for Leaders:
1) Cost - I applaud the recommendation to make scouting no-cost for leaders
2) Interview / Records Check process - a necessary barrier being discussed at length elsewhere
3) Philosophy - at the risk of starting something big I will state that I think it is time to review the policy of allowing only Theists into the organisation. I know a number of Humanists, Agnostics and Atheists who have an exemplary moral background and have a faith in the power and spirit of their fellow human beings to work together to bring about a better world that I would hesitate to classify as non-spiritual. In a world where increasing numbers of people are turning away from organised religion we should not be surprised that our membership declines if we insist on it as an article of membership
4) Training - online training at Woodbadge1 is long overdue
5) Work and other commitments - a fact of life is that people are busier now than in previous generations (Recommended Reading "Bowling Alone" http://www.bowlingalone.com/)
6) Age ? - I think it would be a great idea in theory to have all front-line leaders retire at 35. The youth are much more responsive to younger leaders. However, I don't see this as practical - by the demographics of today that would likely preclude parents from being leaders of most sections. I think it is a fact of life that we will be facing a future where we will be more reliant on parent leaders rather than less. I understand that this will lead to continuity problems but I think it is just the way it is going to be and the sooner we embrace it the better.

Chil, I'd have to modify one of your statements...in a country that is turning away from organized religion. Religion is still strong the world over...including most western countries. I can't explain the reasons for the decline in organized religion in Canada, but I have a hunch that it's tied closely to the decline in Scouting (and by that I mean the root social cause, not the relationship between Scouting and God).

I don't want to begin yet another string on the religion debate, but I will say this...Scouting was built on certain principles. It's whole purpose was to uphold and promote those principles; abandoning the principles on which the Movement was established (and continues to thrive in most of the world) serves only to diminish us to the level of yet another boys and girls club.

I'm I Scouter first and foremost because I believe firmly in the tenats of the Scout Promise and Law, and strive to achieve their purpose in my daily life. The day that Scouts Canada removes duty to God from the Scout Promise, I will tender my resignation. I certainly hope it never comes to that.

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I'm I Scouter first and foremost because I believe firmly in the tenats of the Scout Promise and Law, and strive to achieve their purpose in my daily life. The day that Scouts Canada removes duty to God from the Scout Promise, I will tender my resignation. I certainly hope it never comes to that.

As my Mother used to say: "From your lips to G-d's ear".
You would find me right behind you Steve.

In Western Europe, in any case; and at all Intercamps and Jamborees that I have visited (and there are quite a number over the past 55 years that I have been a Scouter), in whichever country, there has always been a Scout's Own held; and where requested, even a particular service for our Jewish and Muslim members has been arranged when possible. It is also not uncommon for the Christian members to get up early on a Sunday morning to attend the Church of their Faith.

The 35 thing is not going to work. We have a group total of about 40 youth. We have two leaders under 35. The 25 to 35 range is targetting adults after college/university when they are starting families. They have little to no time. When I was 35 I had 2 boys 6 and 2. One in Beavers, and one just too young. Just trying to spend time with my own kids let alone my 1 hour a week to Scouting was tough. There should be more emphasis catch the parents at the Beaver stage and have them progress through Scouting with their child(ren). Backing off on the training commitment until the Cub stage.

Yes, religion always sparks contraversy. Regilion was the best thing for mankind, and the cause of most of mankind's misery and suffering. It is that double-edge sword thing. As an atheist and a leader, I added what religion I could to the program, but religion is a tough thing to understand since there seems to be a new one every day, causing just as much division as ever. I think as Canadians, we are becoming a little too politically correct on some issues, that is just being Canadian. I know it is the basis of Scouting, back 100 years ago, but I think that this is one thing that can be removed and maybe replaced by the Green movement, for example.

Be careful with "back off on training" of Beaver leaders. If a group has a Beaver program, and nothing says they have to, it has to be a good one. Otherwise the kids will drop out of Beavers and you will have a harder job getting them back as Cubs as they will get pre-conceived notions about Scouting. The same would apply between Cubs and Scouts.

Notwithstanding many parents like to move up with their kids, having parents and their kids in the same section, especially in Cubs/Scouts and above, has it's drawbacks.


Allan.

Be careful with "back off on training" of Beaver leaders. If a group has a Beaver program, and nothing says they have to, it has to be a good one. Otherwise the kids will drop out of Beavers and you will have a harder job getting them back as Cubs as they will get pre-conceived notions about Scouting. The same would apply between Cubs and Scouts.

As a former Colony Scouter and a current Colony Part 1 trainer (who tries to make sure current Colony Scouters are an essential part of the training team) I agree. Don't back off on training at the Colony level - it builds a base for those who move up later on and helps Colony Scouters run a quality program.

Notwithstanding many parents like to move up with their kids, having parents and their kids in the same section, especially in Cubs/Scouts and above, has it's drawbacks.

I think the biggest challenge here is that some parents shouldn't move up with their kids. Too often parents move up when they really aren't suited for that section. Frankly, I wasn't an effective Scout Counsellor and probably shouldn't have stayed at the Troop level. And, currently, health issues prevent me from effectively serving as a Colony Scouter because of the level of energy needed. Group Commissioners, and Leaders, need to be able to say "no" to a parent for the sake of the youth. But it's difficult to do so.

Noted. I think a strong colony leader is a better idea. Many parents get scared away when there is a push to do part 1, escpecially on the duty of care sectioon of the BP&P. That alone has chased a few potential leaders to the helpful parent side. Yes, a strong beaver colony leads to a strong Cub and so on.

And I do agree that some parents are great when they move up with their children through the program, but I have seen the downside of this. It really depends on the relationship of the parent/leader and youth. I try not to be in my son's section, but with leader shortages, I go where I am needed. We have fun, and it works for the most part. Even though I am well past the 35 year mark, I am still a big baloo at heart.

On the age thing...

How did they come up with this seemingly arbitrary age of 35? You have a birthday, and suddenly you're "too old" because you're "out of touch"? Sounds a lot like Logan's Run to me! (Those of you who are under 35 might not understand that reference).

Anyway, I'm all for young leaders! I came back to the Movement in my mid-20s, and I was great at it! I was single, no kids, lots of energy...it was fantastic. So now I'm in my late 30s, and admittedly, I've got little less free time to put into Scouting...couple of little kids, house to take care of, work committments, and a few chronic aches and pains starting to make me realize I'm not Superman any more.

But you know what...I've got 20 years of experience in Scouting, and a great deal of enthusiasm for the Movement, that more than compensates for my getting "old". In Thunder Bay, the most active Troop in town is led by two guys in their late 50s who have been running the same troop together since 1981! They're over the hump...their kids are gone, their houses are paid for, they've got the spare time, and, because they're both in reasonably good shape, they've still got the energy and enthusiasm.

You can't pick a number and say, "once you're this old you're out of touch"...it's staying involved with the youth that actually keeps good leaders "in touch". Besides, if you're running a proper youth-led program, they should be telling the leadership team what they're interested in.

Anyway, I could rant some more, but I've got a canoe trip to get to. My closing evidence is of course that B.-P. was 50 years old when he ran the camp at Brownsea. I don't think anybody held it against him.

Off I go to the Turtle River...

Steve B.

I was 35 when I joined Scouting for the first time! When my daughter was a cub, I was one of those active parents but no more. When my son was old enought join beavers, there was a shortage of leaders so I agreed. I quickly figured out that beavers wasn't "my thing" but since the need was there I stayed until I took over the pack in my group. I love cubs and their developing curiosity. I had never even heard of a woodbadge part anything before that time. I honestly think that if I was told it was a required part of the leader position, I would have declined. The time committment for it would have scared me off. At that point, I never expected I would stay in scouting for any lenght of time. Now I have a different perspective and welcome the training. But that developed over time. While everyone getting a WB1 in their section is a comendable goal, it is also unrealistic. Most people join scouting as a way to keep the group going when their child joins. It is only afterwards, when they realize what a great opportunity and organization scouting is, that they consider further training. Most people do not consider scouting a career when they first join (correct me if I'm wrong...).
While I'm expressing my opinions so freely today, I want to add my two cents worth to religion in scouting. I believe there is a higher being, a higher purpose in life; what that is, I'm not sure. To reject potential leaders, volunteers etc based on their religious beliefs is discriminatory and against Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedoms. It is possible to promote Scouting's basic principles without practising an organized religion. I encourage my cubs to bring their religion with them to all of our activities and we have a wide variety represented. I am not there to tout my personal beliefs but rather to promote the basics of good common sense and values regarding the people and environment around us. You do not necessarily need to believe in a God to be a good person and a contributing member to society.

You're right Aging that many new leaders aren't keen about about taking a weekend to do Woodbadge I. Especially if they have other young children at home.
I wasn't keen, but did it and it certainly gave me the confidence to run my own Pack when I had to a month or two later and it put me ahead of a lot of other leaders. It was definitely worth it.
As a group commissioner I cannot force a volunteer to take training. There just aren't that many volunteers and they are difficult to come by. Fortunately I have a good core of trained leaders who talk it up and encourage it. And they're willing and eager to take whatever that comes -- first aid, wilderness skills, Woodbadge I for another section.
Being from a small and almost remote area though, the course is only offered once a year and if a leader can't make it, or joins after it is held, they and we are out of luck for a year or longer. And don't get me started on virtual impossibility of getting a Woodbadge II course.
So any effort by SC to get training materials online is greatly appreciated. It won't replace in-person training, but it's a better starting point than no training, and supplemented by mentorship by a section leader, group commissioner, or service team, it may be fairly effective.
The reluctance to take training, I think, goes back to one of the bigger barriers to recruiting volunteers, and that's the time commitment. We need to reduce the time demands and pressure on section leaders and their scouters by giving them more support. And we need to demonstrate to potential and new leaders that help is available.
For example, there was (is?) a philosophy that area events should be organized and run by section scouters. Though I think it's essential that section scouters have input and supervise their Colony, Pack, or Troop at the event, and if possible otherwise contribute, I believe the organization and running should be done by service team, group scouters, and other volunteers.

While I'm expressing my opinions so freely today, I want to add my two cents worth to religion in scouting. I believe there is a higher being, a higher purpose in life; what that is, I'm not sure. To reject potential leaders, volunteers etc based on their religious beliefs is discriminatory and against Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedoms. It is possible to promote Scouting's basic principles without practicing an organized religion. I encourage my cubs to bring their religion with them to all of our activities and we have a wide variety represented. I am not there to tout my personal beliefs but rather to promote the basics of good common sense and values regarding the people and environment around us. You do not necessarily need to believe in a God to be a good person and a contributing member to society.

Persdonally I do not believe that Scouts Canada rejects anybody based on their religious beliefs; the

Spirituality Badge

being, to my mind, a very serious proof of this. As to the rest of your statement, perhaps you could post it to the General Discussion Forum; "Religion and Spirituality in Scouting". What you say is true and I would like to broaden my comment there, rather than starting the Topic here again.
YITSF

I know that training is essential to Scouts Canada, but I find that some people, whether in Scouts Canada or in the world at large, can take all the training possible, be accreddited for it, and still could not lead. As they say, some people are born leaders. Sometimes I questions the motives of spending time training up to a point. When it is for the youth and when is it for the person. Training can help, but it takes a good group commissioner to know his crew. So trying to blitz new leaders for training I think is a mistake as it scares off potential leaders, as noted above, and creates a time committment, as noted above, but elevates your status in the section all of a sudden. 'She has her WB1, she can lead' - mistake. WB1 is really what parents should know already, and WB2 doesn't teach you specifics like dealing effectively with problem youth (ie. ADD). I really think that the whole training regiment should be re-thought with a nation 'backbone' but with regional or area specifics.

I know that training is essential to Scouts Canada, but I find that some people, whether in Scouts Canada or in the world at large, can take all the training possible, be accreddited for it, and still could not lead. As they say, some people are born leaders. Sometimes I questions the motives of spending time training up to a point. When it is for the youth and when is it for the person. Training can help, but it takes a good group commissioner to know his crew. So trying to blitz new leaders for training I think is a mistake as it scares off potential leaders, as noted above, and creates a time commitment, as noted above, but elevates your status in the section all of a sudden. 'She has her WB1, she can lead' - mistake. WB1 is really what parents should know already, and WB2 doesn't teach you specifics like dealing effectively with problem youth (ie. ADD). I really think that the whole training regiment should be re-thought with a nation 'backbone' but with regional or area specifics.

AGREED BalooTwo. WB Training does NOT make Leaders, but it does help all Scouters to understand better what Scouting is all about. A natural Leader, and there are many of them, does NOT need WB Training to be a successful Leader; but (s)he does need it to be a good Scouter. I don't know if I am expressing myself well here. I am not saying no WB, I AM saying a good Leader is a Good Leader and WB makes one better AT Scouting...
UNFORTUNATELY (correct me if I am wrong), there does not seem to be anything especially devoted to dealing with problems such as ADD or any other "mental" (for want of a better word) challenges.