Family Camping

Why do Colony overnighters have to be classified as Family Camping, Why can't we take the youth the same as the Cub Scouts do. Are we trying to build a youth program or a Parent & Youth program. If parents need to be present how about volunteering - wear the uniform - get really involved. I don't favour the "Family Camping" policy. Beaver Scouts are not babies and should NOT be treated as such. We have a very large group and this rule hampers our chances at having good numbers for a winter camp. Any other colony leaders agree?
Jim Hunter 1st Bolton

John:

I hear your message loud and clear, but I don't think that the situation is as cut and dried as ditching the Family Camping policy.

Most Brown Tails have never had a night away from home, except at a grandparents or other family members' homes. A first night at a friends house can be scary enough to have to call mom or dad to pick them up from a few blocks away, let alone in a tent or cabin with a bunch of other kids an hour away from civilization.

Then, you have your White Tail Busy Beavers, no longer Eager Beavers, who are ready to GO! My own son is 7.5, and ready for Cubs now. We are linking our white tails heavily with our cub packs right now, because some of our white tails are getting antsy. Family Camping is certainly not necessary for white tails.

Then, you have the Blue Tails, who can be ready for camping, or who might not be.

The trouble is, the kids in my Colony (we have 27 right now) are all over the map. There are some I wouldn't hesitate to have without their parents, and there are others where I just know I'll be standing on a rock trying to get a cell signal so that I can get the parent to pick up their terrified child.

John, you're right, Beavers are not babies, but some of them are pretty darn close. Thus, the reason for the Family Camping policy.

Solutions: Hybrid policies. Give some discretion to the Leaders, engage risk management. Most parents (note I say "most") are aware of what their kids can do. Make a camp non-family for white tails, family for brown tails, and in the leaders/parents discretion for the rest. Leaders would need to have the ability to contact parents on short notice. Also, don't neglect sleepovers as a means of getting the youth ready for a camp. That can be a nice bridge to camping.

The Colony Program is made not just to introduce youth aged 5-7 to scouting, but it is made to get them ready to be cubs. It should be treated by all Beaver Leaders as preparation for Cub Scouting, not just as a Beaver program. Treating it as the latter will lead to really poor retention. Camping leads to high retention. Same with Cubs, it should be treated as a Junior Scouts program, getting them ready and ASSUMING that they are going to go up to Scouts when they turn 11.

Winter camping for Colony should be a cinch, because you are obviously using heated cabins for Beaver-aged youth. Surely, youth who are comfortable away from their parents should be allowed to come without a parent, so long as ratio is maintained. Hopefully, this will be examined in the program review. John, it may not be too late for you to sign up. At least, there might be the opportunity to get your views before the review teams. Contact Doug Reid at national. He's on the main SC website.

Thanks for your reply Angus,

There is truth in what you say about brown tails. Understand that we have 3
colonies, 72 Beaver Scouts and we could never find a cabin big enough to house everyone. We do an annual sleepover and have as many as 39 Beaver Scouts attend, without parents, and have yet to have a problem. Some parents simply do not camp, tent or cabin, and I don't believe this should keep a Beaver Scout form experiencing the joys of the outdoors. Winter camp is of course indoors for Beaver Scouts.

Scouter Levi

I hate to be a spoilsport but hybrid policies won't work. Discussions on both this board and Facebook led to Scouts Canada posting a clarification on Beaver Scouts leadership rations and camping policies: http://www.scouts.ca/ca/clarifying-beav ... ing-policy.

Whether there have been problems or not, Beaver Scout camping is family camping.

Sums it up fairly well, doesn't it? I agree, a hybrid policy probably won't work. Good discussion, though.

The policy lobs the risk management to the parents, as opposed to Scouts Canada taking it on. It will be up to parents as to whether or not their child goes camping, and having the parent be responsible for the decision is only proper, especially at that age.

OK, I then have a related question. If Beavers are not allowed to camp without a parent, when we take white tails to cub camp at the end of the year before swim-up, they would have to have parent with them? Or can they then be treated like Cubs? Our group has a couple of cubs that are only in grade 2, we let them join cubs instead of beavers as they were new to the group, very mature, and our beaver colony is really brown tail heavy. The white tails (we only have two) are grade 2 also. So technically the Grade 2 cubs can camp without a parent and have done so all year, while the Grade 2 white tails have to have a parent with them, just because they are registered in different sections? On the other hand we have a few grade 3 and 4 cubs, that actually have trouble even with sleepovers without a parent. My point is, kids mature at different ages. There needs to be some leeway in the policies to allow for leader discretion in who can and who cannot sleep overnight without a parent.
I am a cub leader now, but used to be a beaver leader, and personally I would not want the responsibility of dealing with a bunch of brown tails without parents at a tent camp, but if you are in a lodge I don't think it is any different than a sleepover at the church.

It sounds like we are all voicing the same concerns, and that we all agree, but are just saying it differently.

What this really comes down to is planning and risk management. Parents know their kids, and leaders, over the course of a year, know their youth. By this time in the program year, any decent leader will have a pretty fair idea of how each youth will react in a given situation. Life is messy, and 5, 6 and 7 year-olds do not fit into nice little pigeon holes so that we can keep them properly organized. Anyone who has been to a Beaver meeting on "Hockey Night in Colony" (ours last Tuesday! Wow!) can testify to the fact that the leaders are riding the backs of the tiger, so to speak. Maybe that's why the BSA calls them Tiger Scouts!

My view is that a swim up White Tail camping with a Pack is an un-invested cub, not a Beaver any more, despite registration. It is not a Beaver Colony camp, but a Cub Pack camp, and B.P.& P. regarding cub-aged youth is what applies in that case. It may be a narrow distinction, but the alternative is ridiculous.

In short, leaders need some discretion on this. I found the White Tail sleepover in November annoying for both youth and leaders (we all wanted to strangle the idiot with the trumpet who blew Taps at 11 p.m., waking up our whole Colony), and not every kid had a parent there, so why not the same at a camp? If you are in a heated Lodge or large cabin, with camp staff etc. (hardly camping in my view), and the youth are emotionally okay without mom or dad, that should be fine. The flip side of this is leaders MUST be properly trained and have a sound grasp of risk management, with their camping plans submitted to their GC (or their AC, if they are the GC themself) for approval.

We tried very hard to provide a clear statement around the camping policy for Beaver Scouts. The key here is to determine if it's a sleep over or if it is truly camping. Here are the statements:

Minimum facilities for Beaver camping must include tents for sleeping and
some form of additional weather resistant shelter suitable for games, crafts,
dining and cooking.

BP&P section 10000.2 – Definitions:
(v) “Family Camping” is an overnight camp where each Beaver Scout is accompanied by
an adult member of their family or adult designate.
(vi) “Sleepover” is staying overnight in your typical meeting place or comparable
Facility, such as community hall, school, etc.

If the facility you are using is comparable to your meeting place then it's a sleepover. Heated building, lights, running water, indoor plumbing...this type of facility, no matter if it is downtown or at a "camp" is not camping, based on the definition above, it is a sleep over.

Camping really is the opposite, a temporary structure (tent etc...) and/or a building that has bunks (cabin/lodge) but fails on the other items. If a child has to go outside to use an outhouse or johnny on the spot, the building has no electricity..., no running water, then I would say that it's camping and the parent should be attending with their child, that is the policy. Because the facility is not comparable to their meeting place. It is this word "Comparable" that is the determining factor in deciding whether it is a sleep over or if it is camping.

Doug

Thanks Doug. that was a well explained piece. so at a sleepover they dont need parents, right?

That is correct, it has the same ratio as any other meeting/activity which is 1:5 (minimum of 2-deep our course). Volunteers are always free to lower the youth-volunteer/parent ratio, asking parents to attend and help, if they or their group thinks it's necessary. We trust our volunteers to exercise their common sense when planning and carrying out activities and outings.

Doug

Thank you so much Doug for clarifying this issue for me.
Yours in Scouting
Scouter Levi

There is a year of leeway in terms of advancing to the next section, so if the youth is really dying to go camping, they an go up to cubs as early as 7.

If the facility you are using is comparable to your meeting place then it's a sleepover. Heated building, lights, running water, indoor plumbing...this type of facility, no matter if it is downtown or at a "camp" is not camping, based on the definition above, it is a sleep over.

Camping really is the opposite, a temporary structure (tent etc...) and/or a building that has bunks (cabin/lodge) but fails on the other items. If a child has to go outside to use an outhouse or johnny on the spot, the building has no electricity..., no running water, then I would say that it's camping and the parent should be attending with their child, that is the policy. Because the facility is not comparable to their meeting place. It is this word "Comparable" that is the determining factor in deciding whether it is a sleep over or if it is camping.

Doug

Can this part be added to the clarifications?
This is the thing that is hanging up most Beaver Leaders that I have talked to when reading the requirements. Going "camping" at the Scout Camp but staying in a "Lodge" is it "camping" or a "sleepover" ? People are being TOLD it is "camping" because it is at a "Scout Camp". Where the facilities are almost identical to those at the meeting halls.

Yes please clarify this in Scouts Scenes and Scouts.ca "camping VS sleepover" as the Clarifacation on Scouts.ca still leads a Colony Scouter to beleive that all sleepever events except at the meeting place are camps and need parents to attend . The post Doug Reid made about Camping is a temporary Shelter and Sleepover is a Building with comforts of the meeting place no matter how many nights (1or2 ) any where, in town or Scout property is a sleepover. This is the best explaination. In a camping situation with out house visits at night and darkness etc you would want a parent there to help care for their child BUT at a sleepover in a building with all comforts Scouters can supervise the children easier. I recently had a camp in a cabin and was lead to beleive parents had to attend. I found many familes couldnt attend as they needed both parents at home to run the kids to Saturday/Sunday morning activities so the Beaver child couldnt attend camp either.So its not a ratio clarification that is needed now , its a camp ,sleepover definition clarifcation we need now.

Thanks