Privacy issues with Google Docs, MS Office Live, etc.

I would like to use some simple collaboration tools, like Google Docs, to help with planning among fellow Scouters. The problem is getting user "buy-in" as several folks are often concerned about privacy issues, especially with US based application providers.

Is there anything in the BP&P that prevents or forbids us from using Google Docs, Microsoft Office Live or other similar facilities?

Fuel or water for this fire appreciated...

I don't know of any direct restrictions in BP&P other than the duty of care and privacy policies. I would avoid using it to track lists of youth and their addresses, for instance.

If you would find it useful, I could set up a private forum for your group here at talkscouts.ca and make you it's moderator/admin. It's not as flashy or feature-rich for collaborative document creation. Send me a PM if this appeals to you. We can always rehost to a bigger server if the idea catches on.

I have my eye on Google Wave, which I think may be the answer going forward. Google is going to allow users to host their own servers which will cut down on the "Big Brother is watching" feeling that I have about those tools.

Steve, what type and scale of planning do you mean? Section? Group? Area?
I've played "Pass the email" at section, and found a 5-minute wrap up and look ahead after most regular meetings to be most effective, not just for the next meeting but several down the line.
In-person meetings are more problematic with group and area, but I haven't had a problem doing things with email and telephone calls between monthly meetings.
Google Wave looks awesome, and I can certainly see the benefits for me at work, but I'm not sure how much value it has for planning scouting activities -- some to be sure -- or how long it will take for it to catch on when so many Scouters seem to be technophobes.

What do I use Google Docs for? Actually, I do use it to store my youth's names, phone numbers and addresses. The information is not web-published and is only readable with only those I expressly allow. I also use it to track fund raising, camp fees, Cub/parent notices and other administrativia. I like it because I can access it at work and at home without worry of losing the files.

The Patriot Act, etc makes it a little more complicated. The US government could request that information and find who has and has not paid for camps. Perhaps PIPEDA (The Personal Information Protection and Electronic Documents Act) here in Canada means that I shouldn't be doing this. (I know, for example, that it is enough that Canada Games will not use any US hosted services to track its youth participants.)

I use the Scouter Wiki to plan my Cub events and meetings, as there is no personal information there and I do not wish to hided it from others.

In the mean time, I'm in a bit of a squeeze with the claim that "Google docs usage is against the BP&P". If any one can help back up or refute that claim, it would be a help to me.

Thanks.

Hi Steve,

Section 12000 is the most relevant section of BP&P to this question, and 12000.1 specifically names the CEO/CEC as responsible for policy compliance, and the national Risk Manager and the Council Executive Directors for the management of the policy.

As a result, I was going to suggest that you talk to your ED about your concerns, but then I realized that Nova Scotia doesn't have any professional staff.

In your case the best person for you to talk to is your Council Commissioner.

I anticipate that the largest sticking point will be using Google Docs for the storage of youth's names, phone numbers and addresses. The one question I would ask is: why are you maintaining a separate member list, when MMS contains all this information, is able to generate one for you, and is just as accessible from any location?

Chris, the MMS system is basically just a list of names. It is not interactive enough to turn it into a database that can help leaders track fees, dues, fundraising, badge requirements, participation in activities and a lot of other things leaders sometimes track. Nor is it particularly user friendly with ready access.

When I was a section leader, I kept an email doc I could access and update at work or home as needed, but I didn't share access to it as Steve seems to want to do with Google Docs.

I mentioned this topic to someone far more intelligent than me, my wife who is a teacher, and she seemed to shudder at the thought. She said that any Ontario teacher who kept any personal info on students online would likely be violating the Ontario Education Act, privacy legislation, and school board policies, as well as breaking the inherent trust between student and teacher. Student info is already available to teachers online through the board and the ministry of ed, but those are secured servers not some abstract computing cloud, and the bottom line, she said, is that they have the authority to do that.

Though I think she might be overstating the case, I see her point and because she is more intelligent than me I would do what she says.

At least until I found someone more intelligent or knowledgeable than her who says otherwise.

I really don't see the issue myself... such paranoia.
The Google Docs workspace or Microsoft Office Online workspace are touted as private and only accessible by the user and/or people designated by the user. That makes them wonderful tools for online collaboration... something like a shared hard drive. It's no different than using an online album and securing it so only certain relatives can view the pictures. I use Office Online myself.
While I generally don't post phone lists (I email everything), it's great for storing a powerpoint on fire building, letters to parents, etc. or any number of resources. Who cares if someone happens to break in (unlikely in my opinion, I can't imagine what on earth they think they'll find), and are rewarded with our Troop's Hobo Stew recipe for their efforts?
If you're nervous about it, just keep the personal stuff off of it and use the MMS for that. There's really not that much of it we deal with on a regular basis anyway (name, phone number, email). Use the workspace for all your other information.

Hi,

I use GMail and Google docs extensively and can probably help a little bit...

The intent (generally) is that we tell people why we are collecting their inforamtion, what we are going to do with it, how long we keep it and that it won't be given to outside agencies without consent.

All of that really affects 'The Corporation' that the National Council exists as, we can't sell our mailing lists to 'backpacker' magazine (for example) without consent.

But in terms of working with that data by leaders inside the organization I would use a 'need to know' basis - you're a section leader, or asistant then you need to know the info on your sections youth - but not the group next door. Section 12001 of BP&P addresses this.

There are no spicific restrictions in BP&P about where data is stored by leaders (I.E. US/CANADA) just that you take care to protect it, so if you are using due dilligence to protect that data - only storing required info and only opening it up to required users you're most likely safe. (I'm not a lawer and one of them could probably find a twist point with what I'm saying).

Remember - The idea is to make it 'difficult' to get at the data - the simple fact is that ANY data storage system can be compimized by a determined and educated attack - eventually. I believe that the benifits of improved lateral communication between section leaders, service teams, areas etc. outweigh the real but manageable risks.

Hope that helps - and if anyone has any other comments let me know!

Evan

I use Google calendar to keep everyone on the same page and to do programme development and planning and Google docs for things that don't fit in the calendar, like menus and timetables. I've tried using programme builder online, but it's just not flexible enough (yet, I hope.)

The answer would be for Scouts Canada to make these types of programmes available on it's own secure servers. (Hint, hint)

I'm utilising Google calender this year (http://www.1stmerrickville.ca/group/calendar.htm). I like it for tracking all the events, etc. I haven't heard anything back from any parents as to whether they utilise it. I know my Venturers don't check it before calling me


Allan.

I know my parents check the calendar.

I don't personally see any issues with Google Docs. Unless you post the documents on a public site... I don't think you have too many privacy issues to truly deal with.

Additionally Scouter Ken, I have a small application that I am working on that might be useful. It would address the needs which you have mentioned above. Let me know if you are interested and I can give you a copy of the beta version. It is not perfect but it does set us a foot a head of where we are.