Scout Camps and Properties

Given that I'm located within walking distance of Camp Samac (Oshawa, Ontario) and I have seen the steady decline of this asset over the past 5-10 years, I am particularly interested in learning from others some "best practices" regarding Scout Camps.

Action Item #1.6 in the Action Plan is something that I can see having quite early wins, if we can collectively apply our skills and expertise.

With our extensive range of properties (owned & leased) is there not someone who has developed a comprehensive on-line booking tool that can be adopted by those properties who do not have the resources to develop this? It seems to me that (at least here in Ontario) the majority of commercial (non Scouting) properties have an advantage whereby potential users can quickly determine both pricing and availability - a function that far too many Scout Camps (at least in this Council) seem to lack.

The drive towards evolving Camp properties into "Scout Activity Centres" is admirable, and I would hope that the respective Provincial Incorporated Bodies could somehow communicate with each other and facilitate this. Has anyone given any thought as to what an "SAC" looks and feels like?

After seeing a lot of good work done on our properties, yet still we do not seem to "get it right" I have a decided interest in trying to collectively protect these assests, and welcome any advice...

Scouter Stewart

Excellent point Stewart! Surely someone out there mus know of a tool that could be used for this.

The ability to quickly determine price and availability is, from my experience as a Scouter, a key item in Action Item #1.6 "Making it Easier to Use Scout Camps and Properties" and important in making things easier for our new and existing volunteers.

The Action Plan recommendation that Councils strengthen camping capacity by

a) developing a one-stop Scout camp website, that would include:
i) detailed camping information about each Scout camp across their provinces, with maps and photos of services available
ii) online reservations for camping

is, I believe, spot on. More than just being able to book a camp, Scouters need to know what facilities are available in a detailed and consistent manner. This includes:
- reasonable estimates of the number members that can be accommodated on camping sites, on bunks in cabins and on the floors in cabins and halls (where practical)
- how the facilities differ or are suitable for warm weather camping vs. cold weather, Beavers vs. Cubs vs. Scouts vs. senior sections
- water availability, testing standard and recommended treatment procedure (... and stop removing hand pumped wells leaving only ponds and lakes as water sources! Water purification is part of the program. We need to enable and promote it with information and knowledge.)

http://scoutdocs.ca/Camps/ makes a very good stab at providing this kind of capability. Unfortunately, the information in it is a little dated in a number of cases and could probably do with a little tidying up. The only other thing that might cause people to shy away from this site is the emphasis on closed and threatened camps, which is understandable given that the site was launched in response to the wide spread threat to these key resources. I would hope, with a new focus on using our Scout Properties, especially in the action plan, that we could move away from the focus on the (past?) threat and focus on using all of our properties, each for the things that they are good at.

So... here's the questions and challenges:
1) is there a booking tool that we could use?
2) can we update and improve the information from the Camps pages?
3) what facility / usability information are we missing? Can we add it? How does it need to be presented to make things easy?
4) can we take the emphasis off the past and put it onto the future that we all want?

Some camps are removing hand pumped wells? Yeesh...

The scoutsdocs website does a great job. While online knowledge of cabin/etc reservations would be a nice addition, at least it has the contact information for the wardens. Even if online reservation functionality was added, that would need the buy-in of all the camp wardens to manage the information. Many of them are probably more comfortable with calendar on their wall But adding optional booking where the wardens will support it is a good idea.

This being said, given I have never used cabins for camping (except Cubs in the winter), availability is never an issue. Every camp I know of always has camping spots available for tents. So it is more the physical camp features, equipment on site, photos, and maps that I need from camp websites.

Groups should be encouraged to submit updates to scoutdocs for their camps. In the past I have provided information on a number of camps. It must get a fair amount of traffic as I see half a dozen people linking through each month to camping pages on our website.

I'm am wary of the Scout Activity Centre concept as it implies high capital cost activities which implies high camping costs. Though having pre-made activities or kit from which to construct/run activities will certainly help groups that can't manage that on their own.

I think maintaining the threatened/closed camps on scoutdocs is a good idea for a couple of reason. Firstly, groups can still camp at many of the closed camps. Rock Dunder is a good example where our Cubs go back there every year as it is the best winter Cub camping spot in the area. Secondly, the closing of all those camps was a sad chapter in the history of Scouts Canada, and under the 'Lest we forget' analogy we need to keep it in peoples minds that this did happen and could happen again if we are not vigilant.


Allan.

Personally, I'm not sure what a Scouting Activity Centre is so I'll hold judgment on that until I see a clearer definition, though I wholeheartedly endorse using Scout camps and making it easier for groups and sections to use them.

A centralize booking system might be advantageous for the larger, busier camps, but I doubt it of much use to the many small ones where the camp director or property manager merely notes things on a wall calendar. I also think some of us would be dubious of allowing SC to handle the bookings for our camp.

Best is a comprehensive website similar to the scoutsdoc website, a searchable database updated at least annually, and as Allan suggested with photos, more information -- such as programs available, and optional central booking.

There are plenty of good camping and recreational opportunities outside of open Scout camps -- closed SC sites, conservation areas, provincial and national parks, even some municipal parks, on private property and Crown land, but that's not where this website should be going. Only open Scout camps should be listed, as the intent of the list should be to encourage use of and to make the use of existing Scout camps easier.

I also question the advisability of designating a camp as "threatened", firstly on the basis of who is going to make the designation, and secondly on what criteria is going to be used. It seems to me to be of questionable merit and, like the never-ending uniform discussion, occasionally going to blow up into senseless hurt feelings and recriminations.

While I don't know if any camps are still officially "threatened", the original designation was from Scouts Canada saying "This camp will be closed unless you can convince us to let you keep it open". So it was actually an "official" designation.

Maybe the list could be filtered, actually scoutsdocs can be, where the default list is the open Scout camps and people can expand the list to show other recommended spots. People could add their own favorite spots that work for them with the intent of spreading good ideas.


Allan.

I think that if we are "wise in the use of all resources" we can easily tailor what a "Scout Activity Centre" is to the camp, it's proximity to other camps, etc. In some cases this could simply mean having marked trails and a map with some camp sites 1 km or so in from the road / parking and maybe a collection of cut spars at a "pioneering station". In other cases, this could mean equipment pre-set for the youth to build rope bridges, a marked range for sling shots, archery, riflery, etc. Of course, in a small number of cases, this could include high ropes courses, rappelling cliffs, climbing walls, sail boats, kayaks, etc. and qualified instruction available. Basically... go through the programs, Cub and Scout in particular, and ask "what needs to be at camp to do this", figure out what camps could support it and then, figure out how to not need the Scouters to have it / bring it.

One key feature of the booking tool would be that the wardens / managers / etc. be notified automatically when a booking is made. (I've seen this for meeting rooms and lab equipment.) The booking tool could be optional. For those wardens / managers / etc. who insist on their wall calendar, then contact information could be provided in place of the tool. On the other hand, utilization will probably be higher at those camps who are part of the booking tool and it's less work and interruption for everyone.

BTW... I'm not saying that we should "forget" about those closed / sold camps. I just don't need to have them in my face by default. If (when?) we are successful in re-growing our membership, we will likely need to increase our camp capacity and some of them might be good pickin's.

Now to digress somewhat... I have a real issue with phrases like "from Scouts Canada saying..." and "officially threatened" since they misinform through imprecision and create or perpetuate exactly the "us vs. them" thing that the Scouting Now action plan and the Chief Commissioner's task force are trying to take us away from. We *are* Scouts Canada so, one needs to be specific about "who" would be threatening them: the Council Management Committee? A sub-committee? The Area? The Ontario Incorporated Body? As a member of the Voyageur Council Management Committee, I can tell you there there is no "threat" to any camp in Voyageur that I am aware of, although we did loose one this past year because the guy in charge of the facility it was at decided to run a bulldozer through the camp. Economics and financial viability are always a consideration but where we are, most camps are considered "Area Camps" and so the economics are left to the Area, camp committees and wardens with budgetary oversight from the Council Management Committee.... which is essentially all Area Commissioners.

I know that other Councils operate differently and we certainly had a situation where some folks got out of hand, believing that they had a mandate well beyond their true mandate. So far as I can tell, those days should be behind us. Let's make that the case and move on.

I prefer to focus on the positive and work to making a real difference. I've made it a personal goal to run or participate in a program at every camp in my Council. So far, I've been at 6 of the 10 camps (plus 1 "unofficial") and plan to add 2 more this coming year. More over, as DCC Program, I've made it my business to get a Council event run at every camp that would support it and raise awareness of the other camps and their facilities to every Scouter that I can (hence the impetus behind the original post).

I have no problem with folks using various "other properties" to do *real Scouting* at them. I just think that our priority should be promoting "our" camps. I think that we may have the wherewithal to do that... we just need to decide to do it.

I love going to our scout camp in Quebec, though we only have one.. Tamaracouta. Oh and yes, Jackson Dodds.. the 1 season cub camp..
One of the items that I find that we are missing from our camps, and I dont know if it is the same in the rest of Canada .. But their is no programming support in the off season (fall winter & Spring).. It's all left to the leaders .. Dont get me wrong I love to host my camps.. but when you have an onsight nature specialist.. or a cool craft session being offered.. I will take the extra help.. I also find my pack is more responsive when the camp Archery specialist is teaching than us...

Knowing that many of our new leaders are quite intimidated by taking 20 kids up to a camp.. And already have way too many things to think about, to get there , what to eat.. what to do .. Imagine, when you book the camp that you have a 2 hr session pre-organized for you (Included in the price) It could be for snowshoeing, interpretive hikes, archery, climbing, cooperative games, fire building.. Knife license workshops.. Survival class.. the list can go on.. I would love to hand over the reigns of my pack for 2 hours during my camps and just follow someone elses lead for a bit.. good mental break.. =) Better than being given the keys to the building and a have fun handshake..

Now of course the cause is $$, we cannot afford any of these staff member working all winter long on site.. Though, another camp that I know about , on the federation side (I feel like a klingon.) Hires rovers & venturers on the wkends to help out .. (Service)! The camp director will pick them up on friday, and bring the to camp, lodge them in the staff cabin.. Include them in the meals with the groups in the cafeteria and have them host a series of activities for the weekend.. They learn job skills, get paid a low salary, $100-$150 a weekend. and do what they love in scouting.. Go to camp ..

I say lets improve what we got, get the word out to go to our camps... and lets get a few helping hands to help us make our camp even more .. Cool..

Marc
www.knwcubs.com

Apple Hill Scout camp offer their program in a can. This is essentially what you describe. Disclaimer: no connection, never tried it, etc.

May 30, 2009 - Program in a Can
Wednesday, February 18th, 2009
Pre Programed Weekend
When: Coming Soon
Where: Apple Hill Scout Reserve
Cost: 14.00 per youth 10.00 per adult

Activities will start at 9:00am Sharp Please report to the parking lot for 8:45

Activites will include:

Archery
Cooking
Shelters
to be determined
to be determined
to be determined
Each activity will be 1 hour long. Lunch is from from 12:00 to 1:00pm or as close as possible to that time. Each group must feed the instructor that you are with at lunch time.

Fees include camping costs for Friday and Saturday night and an Apple Hill Scout Reserve Crest.

I am all for establishing these "Activity Centres" throughout our Scouting properties. However, I feel that this is a bit like putting the cart before the horse. We have many incredible camping resources throughout Canada that are rapidly falling into a deteriorated state. Buildings are not being repaired, kybos are becoming unusable, potable water is becoming an issue, land is not being properly tended. In many cases these camps are valiently maintained week after week by a small band of heroic property/camp committees. In spite of their best efforts the number of repairs needed grows and grows at many camps....sometimes because of financial constraints, but in most cases simply by the small number of volunteers willing to do the work. They are provided with little or no support by any other level of Scouting.

In my opinion, spending money on establishing "Activity Centres" and programming at these camps would be like a flea-bag hotel spending money on a fancy swimming pool and mini-putt. It may get the customers in the door, but at the end of their stay the customer will be talking about the overflowing toilets and leaky roof, not the pool. They will not return. We need to provide significant and meaningful support to our camps FIRST to get them up to a reasonable level of repair.....then we should provide the activities and programming at these camps.

Our camps are a legacy of those who have gone before us. It is our duty to restore and maintain these camps to be used proudly by future generations of Scouting folk. Shame on us if we let these camps continue to slide downwards into a state of uselessness.

I love going to our scout camp in Quebec, though we only have one.. Tamaracouta. Oh and yes, Jackson Dodds.. the 1 season cub camp..
One of the items that I find that we are missing from our camps, and I dont know if it is the same in the rest of Canada .. But their is no programming support in the off season (fall winter & Spring).. It's all left to the leaders .. Dont get me wrong I love to host my camps.. but when you have an onsight nature specialist.. or a cool craft session being offered.. I will take the extra help.. I also find my pack is more responsive when the camp Archery specialist is teaching than us...

Knowing that many of our new leaders are quite intimidated by taking 20 kids up to a camp.. And already have way too many things to think about, to get there , what to eat.. what to do .. Imagine, when you book the camp that you have a 2 hr session pre-organized for you (Included in the price) It could be for snowshoeing, interpretive hikes, archery, climbing, cooperative games, fire building.. Knife license workshops.. Survival class.. the list can go on.. I would love to hand over the reigns of my pack for 2 hours during my camps and just follow someone elses lead for a bit.. good mental break.. =) Better than being given the keys to the building and a have fun handshake..

Now of course the cause is $$, we cannot afford any of these staff member working all winter long on site.. Though, another camp that I know about , on the federation side (I feel like a klingon.) Hires rovers & venturers on the wkends to help out .. (Service)! The camp director will pick them up on friday, and bring the to camp, lodge them in the staff cabin.. Include them in the meals with the groups in the cafeteria and have them host a series of activities for the weekend.. They learn job skills, get paid a low salary, $100-$150 a weekend. and do what they love in scouting.. Go to camp ..

I say lets improve what we got, get the word out to go to our camps... and lets get a few helping hands to help us make our camp even more .. Cool..

Marc
http://www.knwcubs.com

Perhaps a meaningful discussion with Dan would help find a solution to this problem...not??? Particularly the last possibility, I am sure that you may even find summer camp staff who would be willing to help out in the winter months; certainly if there are a few bucks attached...if I am not mistaken most of the summer staff work to pay the tuition...

First - a quick disclaimer - I'm the Outdoor Program Manager for Chinook Council and have been involved in facilitated programming at Scout Camps since 1999. I think that one of the issues is that there are some activities that are difficult for some Scouters to work with their kids to do. That was the reason why, in 2003, Chinook started the Impeesa High Adventure program - it's hard to organize a backpacking trip in the rockies (shameless plug - http://www.chinook.scouts.ca - look under camps and Impeesa Extreme for more info). The idea isn't that someone runs your program for a week, or is a guide who will profit from you not learning how to do it, but to help you plan a high adventure backpacking trip and go on it with your Scouts, Venturers or Rovers. That, in my mind, is the model for a Scout Adventure Centre - one where there is someone with some experience, paid or unpaid, who is there to help, not to do - when a group wants to come. That's the important distinction from an area or council event - they tend to happen when the people planning them schedule them and if a troop scouter has a conflict, the troop doesn't go to the Icebreaker camp, or the Klondike Derby, or Senator Buchanan - and the kids miss the activity for the year. By having the experts (and ideally the equipment and the food) available, you open up the possibility to more kids.

In Chinook we're using this model by having a programmer on staff who organizes "Super Saturdays" at our camps and by running a summer long summer camp for Cubs and Scouts that we invite entire groups to come to. The Scout method is paramount in all our activities and our goal is always to make it easier for volunteer Scouters to run activities.

Mike

You have Impessa covered but what about Gardner, and the camp in the Cypress Hills. What about all those little known campsite areas like Taber's, or Hanna's, who has the complete listing of all these camps found in the Chinook Council boundaries? Northern Lights Council cannot offer a complete listing either. If Scouters don't know what is out there, then some of these camps are not going to be used. The end result is properties disintegrating into relics of the past. A lot of groups make it a point to stay away from scout properties due to cost. Crown Land is CHEAPER, and the youth enjoy sleeping in the woods rather than a building.

The complete(st) listing of camps: http://scoutdocs.ca/Camps/

Fellow Scouter

That is the listing of main camps, it does not list all of the camps. Milton, NS camp is not listed, Sioux Lookout, ON camp is not listed, Taber,AB camp is not listed. Scouts Canada's name appears on the holdings in some form yet there are no current listings.

That camp listing website does have an 'add' function. If people could any any camps, to which they are aware, that are not already list. We can all make this resource even better.