$0 national leader fee

How odd it is it, then, that under these professionals, the number of camp-sites available for free has gone down and the fees have gone up?

What type of camp-sites are we talking about? If it's camp like Camp Byng, where there are buildings to maintain, trees to fall, you know, stuff that has to happen to maintain a safe and productive campsite, then fees for camps make sense. But yes, I agree that there have been decisions that weren't in the best interests of scouting. I can name one locally that I don't agree with but that's the local staff, rather than through national.

And it still is that way for grassroots groups- a Community expresses want for a group they get the people together and get a charter. The local scout office is there to help you through the process. National has just produced products that can help advertise for you group based studies and delivering a standardized message.

Making it a democracy isn't going to get more kids into groups, nor will it get more leaders.

Yes, not directly, but democracy would ensure that Scouts Canada's resources are spent in ways that support those running the program. At the moment, much money, volunteer time, staff time, and property are being consumed by things unconnected to delivering quality Scouting. Poor training programs, resources, and events, unhelpful changes made without consulting the membership, and the general message that section volunteers are not valued as people all contribute to low rates of volunteer membership retention and diminish the ability of volunteers to create quality Scouting. A democratic system would change the focus to providing servant-leadership to the section Scouters.

There is also the small matter of the fact the democratic participation is a human right, currently denied to Scouts Canada's members.

I'd argue that we're using our resources to the best of our ability by letting people that went to school and are professionals in their field to market our product.

I agree that there are some roles which are best done by professionals. It is equally clear that we have too many staff and many of them are not doing work which is worth to us the money that it costs to pay them.

Technically speaking, Scouting is based on a patrol model, with responsibilities being delegated throughout the chain.

I don't understand your analogy. Patrol Leaders are elected by the members of the patrol; commissioners are appointed from on high, ultimately by staff chosen by an un-elected board. How are those similar?

I am going to basically ignore the posts about Democracy or the lack thereof in Scouts Canada, as it should be in the General Discussion forum under its own topic, and focus instead on the fee structure.

We raised our youth rates considerably this year, but the bottom line will be the same. Previously, we used all of our Apple Day donations on leaders' fees (I wouldn't mind paying my own, but that's not the point), thus we didn't use that money on programs. Our fees are up to $170.00, but we are telling parents exactly the difference, and as a Group we agreed to use our Apple Day proceeds as a pro rata (by section) fund to reduce the cost of camps for our youth. Therefore, the first camps of the year will be free, and perhaps all of them, instead of hitting up the parents for $20 each time one of our sections goes camping.

At $170.00, compared to most programs, Scouts Canada is a bargain. My daughter's gymnastics cost the same for three months, for a mere one hour a week. Hockey is, with equipment, about $1,000.00. We provide 2 hours a week (for Scouts/Venturers etc.), and a lot of weekend outings and camps. We are about the cheapest kids' activity going. However, it is still out of reach for a lot of families, especially families with a lot of kids. If we seriously want to address the issue of reducing youth fees, then two things must happen: significant and sustained growth (economy of scale), and better fundraising at the group level. (I still love the bottle un-drive idea, where the community was trained to bring their bottles to a bin at a local church instead of the Beer Store. Looks to be very lucrative, and amounts to a lot of people giving just a little each).

What are other groups doing with their youth fees in response to the change to the leader fees?

Our GC always paid for all volunteer fees (reg fees, camp fees, uniforms, gas to/from camp...etc) so that at no time did any money ever come out of volunteers pockets throughout the year. So now having the $0 fees for leaders means that the money normally used from the GC coffers for leaders now goes straight to supplementing the youth.

National fees went up $12.50 and the council matched that with their own $12.50 increase. the end result would have been a $175 youth reg fee.

But with the leader fee = $0 and our fundraising chugging at full throttle.... we are now supplementing $35 of the reg fee of every single youth who joins our group. Meaning that they are actually paying less this year then they did last year... probably the lowest reg fee we've had in several years.

$0 fee for leaders also means that not only are we supplementing $35 for every youth fee... we are also not going to be charging any other costs to the parents for the entire Scouting season. Camp fees, entrance fees at field trips/archery clubs/activity centres/swimming pools, kub kar kits... etc. All of those small costs that used to come from parents throughout the entire Scouting year... all gone... all covered by us.

The $0 leader fee is certainly a great help in achieving that. The ultimate goal, still reachable in the next year or two is to cover $100 of youth registration fees. It's a goal that's almost in sight. But at the same time our numbers seem to be almost doubling each year too. So that will have an direct impact on just how much we can supplement. Time will tell.

Unfortunately, for us, it didn't help. We have so many leaders shared across sections that the savings are minimal. Our fees are $215 (early) and $230 (normal), up $15. However, we have no dues and do little fundraising (about to change). Our sponsor gives us $0.

Right now, for us, growth would not really help us as (again) we share so many leaders. For us, from the reg fees, each section gets $30 / youth and GC gets the rest. We do subsidize camps, etc but not to the $0 level. We've found that free camps encourage too many to say "yes" and then not show.

Tom

Our GC always paid for all volunteer fees (reg fees, camp fees, uniforms, gas to/from camp...etc) so that at no time did any money ever come out of volunteers pockets throughout the year. So now having the $0 fees for leaders means that the money normally used from the GC coffers for leaders now goes straight to supplementing the youth.

National fees went up $12.50 and the council matched that with their own $12.50 increase. the end result would have been a $175 youth reg fee.

But with the leader fee = $0 and our fundraising chugging at full throttle.... we are now supplementing $35 of the reg fee of every single youth who joins our group. Meaning that they are actually paying less this year then they did last year... probably the lowest reg fee we've had in several years.

$0 fee for leaders also means that not only are we supplementing $35 for every youth fee... we are also not going to be charging any other costs to the parents for the entire Scouting season. Camp fees, entrance fees at field trips/archery clubs/activity centres/swimming pools, kub kar kits... etc. All of those small costs that used to come from parents throughout the entire Scouting year... all gone... all covered by us.

The $0 leader fee is certainly a great help in achieving that. The ultimate goal, still reachable in the next year or two is to cover $100 of youth registration fees. It's a goal that's almost in sight. But at the same time our numbers seem to be almost doubling each year too. So that will have an direct impact on just how much we can supplement. Time will tell.

RakelaK, are you the one who had the "bottle un-drive" idea, with the church agreeing to have a bottle drop off bin, and a church member agreeing to empty the bin on a daily basis? I tried finding it on these forums, but forgot where it was posted. A fabulous idea, and one that every group should try to steal. Makes it easy for people to support Scouting.

That would be me... and yes... the box income frees us up to do many things. Some would worry not going door-to-door lowers our community visibility. But, in fact, it frees us up to be more visible, just in other ways. We are not going door-to-door collecting for ourselves anymore. But we still go door-to-door for the local food bank.. which is the opposite of looking self-serving. My Cubs have adopted the flower gardens of the local schools. Which puts us out doing something for the schools in several highly visible locations... plus... it helps us with several different requirements for Stars, Awards and Badges.

BTW.. the previous bottle box discussion was here:

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Our youth fees are up to $175 ($95 for 3rd child in family).

Since we don't pay our volunteers for their work we make sure to cover their costs for training, uniform, camps and formerly registration. All but 5 of our leaders need to take WB this year so the money that would normally go to registration fees will cover this increase.

We will continue to cover the cost of all local camps and outings for registered members. We do popcorn sales and 3 bottle drives (youth must attend 2/3) to cover our costs.

With my previous group we allowed members to earn back their registration fee by selling popcorn. They got a percent of the profit from their sales up to the entire fee. When we first started selling popcorn they got 100% of the profit.