Scouting Now: uniforms

Do we really need to reinvent the uniform?

I agree with a number of the comments posted elsewhere: it's not the uniform, it's the image of Scouting. Improve the image of Scouting (another topic) and youth will want to be involved.

What I will say is this - the youth's perspective on the uniform changes with their age. There is a phase (generally late Cubs, early Scouts) when youth rebel against the stricture of the uniform. Which is why they were given the option of the activity uniform. Make sure youth have this option (and let them choose both the color of the t-shirt and don't worry if you have five wearing green, four wearing grey and the rest in orange) and are free to exercise it.

If there is to be any change in the uniform it should be: MAKE IT LESS EXPENSIVE!!!! Especially for Scout-aged youth who are going through puberty and are growing out of their clothing weekly (or so it seems). The reason the tan uniform loses its lustre among parents is the cost of replacing it every year during the Scout years.

Uniform - I love the idea to follow UK's example. Cool, distinctive t-shirts and sweatshirts for each section is the way to go. Cheaper, more practical and lower maintenance.

http://scoutshops.com/acatalog/info_1013600C.html

While we're at it why not make the basic uniform items more widely available through chains such as :
- Canadian Tire
- Mountain Equip Coop
- Marks Work Warehouse
I sense that this is a well-worn subject but it makes sense to me that making it easier to get the uniform will only have a positive result on membership numbers. (I know we're going to be able to order items on-line shortly but it would still be quicker and easier to pop down to a local store for uniform items)

Regarding the uniforms I want to see ones that we can use more often. We teach our scouts over and over about the wearing of cotton in the outdoors but then what are our uniforms made of? We need our uniforms to be more functional so that they can be worn at all events. MEC has a number of pants that would fit the bill.

Garth

Re-inventing the uniform is a never-ending debate that only fuels dissatisfaction among Scouters. No matter what resolution is offered some will be offended, a few so seriously memberships will be lost and SC will get booted around the block a few times.

Personally, though I don't care for the current uniform much, I would prefer SC devote its attention to other issues.

But if we must go down that rock-strewn trail I would want a simple, affordable uniform that presents well, and is yet durable and usable during outdoor activities. A golf or rugby shirt with short and long sleeve options, sash and necker, sounds fine to me. Accessory hoodies, sweaters, sweatshirts, pants and headwear should be available but optional.

By the by, sales in a major retailer would be nice but won't happen because the market is just too small.

Stick with the uniforms, please!

Minor changes welcome... remember the berets we used to wear until the early 90s? It was thought it made it look to militant, so we dumped them. Easy change.

I like the idea of cropping the shirt a bit shorter so they don't have to be tucked in. That is a source for of problems for several youth. I could see several modifying the older uniforms, which last forever (thanks to polyester) and are widely available in thrift shops for $2-$5. Again, minor change.

The woggles, or necker sliders, (at least for Cubs) are terrible. They are constantly losing them and they are very difficult to snap/unsnap. Perhaps I should get our Pack to do a craft some night to replace them with something with an elastic.

De-emphasising the uniform is a to de-emphasis our identity and visibility. So long as we don't treat the youth like junior para-militants, the uniform is not much different than a soccer uniform.

The uniform is also the medium for badges. Badges define this organization. They guide our program (implementing all aspects of the program will earn the youth lots of badges), they give incentive (the more you do, the more you earn) and encourage personal development (try something new, get a badge). De-emphasis the uniform and you de-emphasis badges. That leads to the erosion of program guiding, incentives and personal development. The end result, at that exterme, is a once a week play group. We don't need that.

I've found it usually the kids that don't like the uniform also don't like some aspect of scouting/cubbing. Program delivery is is the problem there, not the uniform.

I've also found that kids that are self conscience about wearing a uniform is generally because so few of their friends and peers are in Scouting. Overall enrolment/retention is the problem there, not the uniform.

I'm off to camp for the weekend... and instructed the kids to leave their uniforms at home, keep them clean for Monday night's last meeting.

Stick with the uniforms, please!

[SNIPPED]
De-emphasising the uniform is a to de-emphasis our identity and visibility. So long as we don't treat the youth like junior para-militants, the uniform is not much different than a soccer uniform.

The uniform is also the medium for badges. Badges define this organization. They guide our program (implementing all aspects of the program will earn the youth lots of badges), they give incentive (the more you do, the more you earn) and encourage personal development (try something new, get a badge). De-emphasis the uniform and you de-emphasis badges. That leads to the erosion of program guiding, incentives and personal development. The end result, at that exterme, is a once a week play group. We don't need that.

I've found it usually the kids that don't like the uniform also don't like some aspect of scouting/cubbing. Program delivery is is the problem there, not the uniform.

I've also found that kids that are self conscience about wearing a uniform is generally because so few of their friends and peers are in Scouting. Overall enrolment/retention is the problem there, not the uniform.

I'm off to camp for the weekend... and instructed the kids to leave their uniforms at home, keep them clean for Monday night's last meeting.

Have to agree with Steve here. My experience of over 60 years in Scouting and some 20 years with Canadian Scouts here is Europe is that all use the uniform to the max. European Scouts as a rule wear their uniforms at all events, ceremonial and camping. http://www.intercamp.info/en/interaktiv/fotos/2009/ Have a good look at these pictures at an Intercamp event last Whitsunday weekend. Around the camp area some of the kids wore "activity/work" uniforms; but look at the hike pictures, almost every single one of the 2000+ youth in uniforms of some kind. Not all neat, but yes in uniform. Over here at least the shirt (and sash where applicable) is worn; mostly with jeans at all levels...and we like 'em...

@EDIT: Forget to say that most groups also have their own T-Shirt with group name and logo on it that they use for hiking and other activities in the "wild" but they always have the uniform (shirt and Neckie) along to be worn when needed...as I said, have a look at the pictures I mentioned above.

OK first, I am an admitted uniform junkie. I love the 'traditional' uniform...I love the old green one even more. Wear it every chance I get, and I was not particularly pleased when the so-called "activity uniform" came out (by the way, has anyone ever actually seen Scouts in the white shirt and tie option?).

BUT...

Over the last five or six years, I have grudgingly admitted to myself that the traditional uniform may not appeal to youth as much as I might like...it affects recruitment, image and retention. But I'm still a uniform junkie. So I've refined my outlook (yes, even I can change...)

The way that I frame the uniform to the youth (and their parents) is to look on the tan uniform as "dress clothes"...in the same way you wouldn't wear ripped jeans to a wedding or a bow tie on a fishing trip, the tan uniform should be worn for important occasions, public appearances, etc. But when it's worn it should be worn properly...no ball caps, buttons done up, shirt tucked in, the whole bit. That goes for leaders too! The activity uniform ("class B") is for comfort and general wear...the dress uniform ("class A") is for making a show.

By framing the uniforms this way, I've had a lot more acceptance of the tan uniform by the Scouts...they know that when they're in Class A's its for something important, and they respond accordingly.

That being said, I agree with some of the things changes posted in the strategic document. Changing the cut and fabric is a great idea...take a look at the new BSA uniforms...they still maintain a traditional look, but the shirt is a lot more along the lines of a Cabela's hunting or fishing shirt than a dress shirt.

As for badges on the uniform (and I mean specifically the ones on the shirt, not the badges that the youth earn on their sashes), I think we need to trim down both the size and number of badges on our shirts. We've gotten to the point where we look like Christmas trees...it's getting a little ridiculous actually. There's no need for a provincial badge, or even an area badge. Troop badge on one shoulder, Council badge on the other, world scout badge on the front. That's all we need. Clean and simple.

Uniforms should remain an important component of the Scouting program, but they need to make us look GOOD; not ridiculous and not like slobs. The whole point of BP's original Scout uniform was that it could stand up to a beating in the bush, but still look crisp and tidy with little more than a laundering and a hot iron. We need to get back to that philosphy.

Hear endeth my rant.

What those outside of Scouting say:

I'm a High School teacher and I wear my uniform to work on February 22nd or as close as I can get to that day if its on a weekend. The only comment that I get from fellow teachers and students about the uniform - "It's beautiful". Everyone is so enamored by the look and the colourful crests and badges, they think it looks really sharp.

hmm...
If the goal is to enhance our programs with more outings, camps, active programming.. well, our uniform in no way reflects that.
Our uniform is a commemorative Christmas tree.. (Thats how I see it) Filled with pins, badges and awards reflecting ones accomplishments. (Ornaments).
((Thank god we are not as trinkety as BSA))
Now receiving an award or badge is important to the youth.. Especially when they worked hard for it.
It will only be displayed at meeting and formal gatherings, the rest of the time, their uniform will sit in their closet at home.
Only their trophies from baseball sit proudly on a shelf..

Our Pack, has a T-shirt made, with our group name on it, website and the cool slogan on the back "BEWARE: we travel in Packs!!" We wear it at camps, events , outings, and tons of other activities.. Combined with the neckerchief. In this shirt,our groups looks ready and trendy. We were out in the 26C sun yesterday, our cubs hosted a barrage of games for younger kids in the community.. trust me .. I was happy not to be wearing our Full uniform..

Considering, that 50% of my meetings are outdoors, all my camps are outdoors, all my outings are active visits (No powerpoint tours) and that we are active members of our community by continuously helping out.. Our "Full" uniform is served only for the remainder of our meetings and the ceremonies.

So...
Question, if Scouts Canada, had no uniform, and you, as a volunteer were told to come dressed for a scout meeting, how would you dress?

A. Suit and tie
B. T-shirt, tevas and shorts
C. Dockers and Polo
D. Something comfortable to be active in?

So I say if we are going to re-think a uniform, make it functional for what we do, affordable and trendy.

Marc
http://www.knwcubs.com

Ahh Marc, you just hit on the next point I wanted to make in this debate.

Trendy.

You see, the problem is that Scouts Canada (and other western countries) has been trying to make the uniform trendy since the mid-sixties. Starting with the beret and sash in 1968, up through carbo pants and bush hats in the mid-ninties, to throwing up their hands with an innocuous t-shirt and fleece vest in 2003.

Couple of problems with this approach.

First, we're always behind the trends; by the time we corporatelty figure out what might be "trendy", analyze and pass changes through the board of directors, arrange for production, and actually stock the new uniforms in the Scout Shops, implementing any new uniform is a multi-year process. And once changes are implemented, the prodcution costs make it unrealistic to change again for several years. Scout uniforms will never catch up with 'trendy'.

Second, trends vary from one side of the country to the other, and among social and cultural groups. What appeals to youth in downtown Toronto will be markedly different from what appeals to those in Red Lake, ON.

Third, trendy costs money. The whole idea of being trendy and affordable is unrealistic.

Fourth, and most importantly, trendy is often as inappropriate to the activities Scouts participate in as the traditional uniform. If we wanted trendy (depending on where you're living), we could currently be wearing oversized board shorts and flip flops. Not exactly the best for hiking in the woods. Further to this, despite popular opinion to the contrary, a 100% cotton T-shirt is not more apropriate outdoor wear than a long-sleeve shirt with a collar and patch pockets. Badges and sashes aside, our uniform shirt, on its own, withstands bugs, keeps the sun off your neck, dries easily when wet, and gives you a convenient place to store a book of matches. That's why I really support the direction that BSA took with their new uniform...keep the same essential look, but build the shirt in a modern outdoor fabric, cut the pockets differently, fit the shirt so that it's room and dosen't need to be tucked in. Make it an outdoor shirt. But it still won't be trendy.

Don't get me wrong...I'm all for putting the youth in something that they're comfortable in and which imporves acceptance among their peers, but chasing trends just digs us farther into the hole.

Steve B.

Action Item #2.3
Improving the Image of the Scout Uniform
The idea of a uniform, at least in a formal sense, does not sit well with the digital
generation, although most would embrace the egalitarian rationale for it.

I do not agree with the proposition that the idea of a uniform in a formal sense does not sit well with the digital generation. What does not sit well is a bald demand that the uniform be worn. My feeling is that the current uniform is not practical or suitable for the intended purpose. This year I had 5 girls in my troop. The idea of a uniform was not the real issue with them, the idea of a shirt with tails was an issue. Tucking in the shirt was just not going to happen with the majority of the scouts but especially with the girls. What we need is a straight cut safari type of shirt that is used by a number of Scouting organizations around the world. Wearing the uniform provides recognition and identity. All team sports have a team uniform. The emphasis has to be that the shirt be practical and utilitarian. When the youth understand the purpose of a uniform, to show that one is a member of a team, that it is a functional outdoor shirt, and that it is not burdened with silly rules, like it must be tucked in and top button done up, then it is surprising how acceptable the uniform actually will be. In our group we also have a group t-shirt. We had a decorating night where each youth personalized his or her t-shirt. They were all happy to wear this "uniform". We do not want to be a nondescript youth organization. The uniform needs a focus. Training leaders to understand the focus and purpose of the uniform will help them to convey the purpose and utility to the youth. Wear it because I say so goes nowhere. B-P had the right attitude. He never insisted on the wearing of the uniform. His view was that the youth would wear the uniform because they wanted to wear it, not because they had to wear it. That message got lost over the years.
Scouter Ted Claxton
11th Kitchener Scouts

The most important thing to remember about the uniform is that it is symbolic: It is not just clothing, it is a symbol. This is no different from other kinds of uniforms, whether it is a business man's Armani suit or a skater's hoodie. If Scouts don't like what the uniform stands for, they won't like the uniform. It's not as simple as "the uniform stands for Scouting". If Scouts wear the uniform only during boring Scouts' Owns and car rides, they won't like it, even if they like the rest of Scouting. I discuss this issue in my thesis on membership retention.

In my troop, we were the khaki uniform for the entire duration of both meetings and camps (not when sleeping or swimming). New members are keen to get their uniforms and become part of the group.

There are some improvements can be made to the crests. Areas and councils are administrative units that are of no relevance to the Scouts. I see no point in wearing their crests and doing so pushes the patrol emblem so far down the arm that it becomes an elbow patch or is hidden when sleeves are rolled up. On the right shoulder should be the group and six or patrol. On the left, a Canadian flag and a provincial flag. Canadians, by the way, have the smallest national flag of any Scout uniform I have seen. We're tied with a couple of others, but almost everyone has a larger flag.

There are some improvements can be made to the crests. Areas and councils are administrative units that are of no relevance to the Scouts. I see no point in wearing their crests and doing so pushes the patrol emblem so far down the arm that it becomes an elbow patch or is hidden when sleeves are rolled up. On the right shoulder should be the group and six or patrol. On the left, a Canadian flag and a provincial flag. Canadians, by the way, have the smallest national flag of any Scout uniform I have seen. We're tied with a couple of others, but almost everyone has a larger flag.

Canadian Scouts in Europe wear the Group, and Patrol Emblems on the right arm as suggested by Liam; and because they are not operating within Canada, they wear the Canadian Flag on the left arm where Youth in Canada would wear their Provincial Flag. As far as the "smallest national flag" is concerned, most European Scouting Organizations, that I have ever seen and see over here, do NOT have the emblem with the flag that we wear above the left pocket. They wear their National Colours on very different, but uniform, places on their uniforms. UK Scouts wear a Union Jack about their right pockets, for instance, while the Dutch wear theirs above either pocket sometimes and sometimes not along with their provincial flags; the German Padvinders wear it about the left...some Belgian Associations on the left and some on the right. Just for clarification about what SOME others in the World of Scouting do.
But Liam, if you think we have a problem with too many crests on the arms, you should see how our Brother Scouts in the BSA are decorated...

What I have noticed with my Venturers is that its not as much what the uniform looks like that they don't like, but what it represents. The "cool" boys don't want their friends to know they are in Scouts. My female Venturer said about the boys in uniform in public "Their friends would think they are SuperNerds". We are thinking of floating the idea of a black quick dry shirt as a uniform (no silk screening or embroidering) and see their reaction.


Allan.

I like waering the uniforms - most of the time. When I wear it, I am proud to show it off and it amazes me how many people actually notice what I'm wearing and ask questions. However, there are many times when the uniform is not appropriate or functional. One of those times is in warmer weather. The uniforms are quite warm to wear in an already hot day. In my group we have debated this amongst ourselves. We are pretty evenly split on the pros and cons so we are sticking with the uniform for meetings and special events but not camps. Towards the end of the scout year, many of the boys (we have no girls ) stopped wearing them because they had grown out of them and parents didn't want to spend the money on a new one and who can fault them for that? I personally would like a uniform that is more girl friendly . None of the sizes fits me properly and they are way too long for a shortie like me. A short sleeved version would also be nice so I don't have to find a seamstress to cut off my arms for spring/summer/early fall events.